Some more videoclips

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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SimL
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Some more videoclips

Post by SimL » Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:33 pm

Hi Everyone,

I was just looking through youtube and came across these clips. Perhaps they should be posted in an existing thread, but I couldn't really find one which was completely appropriate (perhaps there is one, I didn't really look very hard).

The first two are language instruction in Taiwanese; the last two are of younger people speaking Taiwanese - (perhaps Ah-bin will take heart that it's not just oldies who still speak it in Taiwan - particularly in the last clip, the whole family seem to be taking a lot of pleasure in the fact that the little boy is speaking it).

A few related clips from these are also interesting, but I won't post them all here - readers can just try clicking on a couple, if they're interested. (Please post any which you find particularly interesting.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jytHN13hvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iclMHW26 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06gMIBj5 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEgu0J5y ... re=related

PS. The last clip might not be co-incidentally just "an average happy family speaking Taiwanese". Briefly - from 04:06 to 04:11 - a man appears with some POJ text written on his dark blue t-shirt, so this could be a clip of a particularly "pro-Taiwanese" family. (There's nothing wrong with that, of course (quite the contrary!), but I'm just speculating that it might not be just a "random" clip of people who happen to speak Taiwanese.)
aokh1979
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by aokh1979 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:53 pm

Listen to 2 siblings arguing in Taiwan Hokkien. Have fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2hTtipdnZ0
niuc
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by niuc » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:27 pm

Sim, thanks, it seemed to be a group of "pro-Taiwanese" having gathering. Glad that the kid can speak Taiwanese Hokkien... :mrgreen:

Aokh, thanks, funny kids. If only many more kids can argue like that... :mrgreen:
SimL
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by SimL » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:12 am

Hi niuc,

Were there any other clues besides the blue t-shirt? I couldn't understand everything the kid said (and even more so, the adults), but it seemed to be mostly about the cicada.

Could you understand some of the text of the t-shirt, or were you basing your judgement on gut-feeling, like I did. Or perhaps you came to this conclusion based on how much the adults emphasized what a positive thing it was that the child spoke Taiwanese...?
niuc
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by niuc » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:12 am

Hi Sim

Yes, it was mostly about cicada... yup, based on gut-feeling. I just noticed part of POJ text on the t-shirt is "... oan e chu lang", i guess it is "tai oan e chu lang" -> owner of Taiwan. I suspect they or at least the guy was DPP supporter.
amhoanna
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by amhoanna » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:32 pm

I think it's safe to say that this family votes Green and is Presbyterian. I mean, Holo lômájī are considered "kooky" even by the average Holo-speaking Green voter. It's cool that the kid is so articulate in Holo. Most educated people in Taiwan——and this family seems like a family that tha̍kcheh——have a deep-seated belief that "kids ... just can't speak Holo, and that's a known fact".

Some videos from "the other straits":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5k9FIqYVQ9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKgDbOvyWmI

I can't really understand the Medan rapper. Also, I can't catch a lot of what the Penang aliân is saying, but it's probably b/c they tuned out the vocals too much.
AndrewAndrew
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by AndrewAndrew » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:43 am

The Ah Lian one is too irritating to watch for long. The Medan one starts

三號八月koh八三年
生出來加囡仔疕
喙垃儳講著屎話
[人拺bē停寫??話]
看藍戲[怗怗是]看藍戲
看查某水水[嚷嚷真渴]
[真]koh有按呢濟翁公仔無hiú[咱]人講的話...

Clearly not the most sophisticated of rhymes.
niuc
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by niuc » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:26 pm

amhoanna wrote:I think it's safe to say that this family votes Green and is Presbyterian. I mean, Holo lômájī are considered "kooky" even by the average Holo-speaking Green voter. It's cool that the kid is so articulate in Holo. Most educated people in Taiwan——and this family seems like a family that tha̍kcheh——have a deep-seated belief that "kids ... just can't speak Holo, and that's a known fact".
Oh, so POJ is only popular among Presbyterians there...

That is a stupid belief, right? It reminds me of a joke: 'Ho2-chai2 gua2 bo5-chut4-si3-ti7-Jit8-pun2, lang5-gua2 bue7-hiau2-kong2-Jit8-pun2-ue7 lai0." (lai0 is a contraction of ly2 cai1 = "you know"/".., right?")

Hokkien is perceived to be "outdated, lower class, etc" but that is a self-fulfilling prophecy if Hokkiens themselves think that way. I can understand those who give up (meaning they have opportunity to learn or pass down but they choose not to) their ancestral language because of financial & political gains (which actually means they think of themselves as not clever enough to be multilingual, well fair enough, right?), but I despise those who despise their own heritage (which actually means they despise themselves, so lets do them some favor by despising them)! 8)

This news is about Hokkien used in "getai" 歌台 (ko1-tai5), also touches on youth people's mastery (or mostly lack of) of it:
"Hokkien is just like Greek"
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNe ... 33326.html
SimL
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by SimL » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:17 pm

Hi niuc,

Thanks for posting this. A very interesting article indeed. While the "first half" is sad news, because of explaining how many young people don't speak Hokkien at all (but we already knew this), I take heart at the "second half", which describes the survival (indeed, even flourishing) of Hokkien in this particular area of the arts.

'TODAY, getai and Hokkien go together like butter and bread. One is virtually inseparable from the other.'

and

"Rediffusion was so hot in Singapore that almost every household owned a Rediffusion set. People would tune in to the Hokkien storytelling segments without fail," said Liu. "In that environment, Hokkien continued to blossom and that popularity translated onto the getai stage as well."

and

'Another veteran getai artiste Zhuang Qingyu, 42, believes that "Hokkien just has the unique ability to bind people together".'
amhoanna
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by amhoanna » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:40 am

三號八月koh八三年
生出來加囡仔疕
喙垃儳講著屎話
[人拺bē停寫??話]
看藍戲[怗怗是]看藍戲
看查某水水 [嚷嚷真渴]
[真]koh有按呢濟翁公仔無hiú[咱]人講的話...
Thanks, Andrew. It would be cool to be able to understand that "Northern Straits" Hokkien so effortlessly. I still don't get the 2nd and 4th lines, all I can catch is gínnáphí in the 2nd line. The 4th line seems to end in 特别特别大.

藍戲 means porn flicks? Could the end of the 6th line be 尖尖真闊?

And what is an 翁公仔?
amhoanna
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by amhoanna » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:05 am

Two observations on Singapore and Holo, m̄ cai ū iáⁿ bô:

1. The great majority of (even young) people in Singapore can at least understand Holo. (Unlike Amoy.)

2. A lot of S'poreans are riled up about the top-down effort to cleanse Singapore of the Holo/Tiociu language(s). (Unlike Taiwan, where most people don't really mind.)

What did U guys think about the pro-Cantonese protests in Canton last summer? Could something like that ever happen in S'pore for Holo-Tiociu?

If so ... S'pore could be the epicenter for a "Holo Renaissance". Heartlanders may struggle financially, but most of Asia looks up to S'pore in money matters. And "Holo-Tiociu" actually kind of exists in S'pore. Another plus——get everybody on board together.

Languages happen and languages die, so no big deal. But Holo——better yet, Holo-Tiociu——still has lots of speakers, lots of life (in a broad sense), great urban presence in strategic locations... Tiâukiāⁿ too good for it to get buried by a few perverted cèngkheh. Maybe it just needs to be re-associated with two things: money and sex. M̄ cai áncoáⁿ cò siōng hó?
SimL
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by SimL » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:36 am

Despite Medan Hokkien being so close to Penang Hokkien, I'm afraid I can't understand much of the lyrics at all. Even with Andrew's transcription, I still had immense difficulty.

Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/user/JeromeLeong ... D4fgNCYgRY
AndrewAndrew
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by AndrewAndrew » Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:22 am

Sim - I'll transliterate the words as I heard them:

三號八月koh八三年
sann-hō peh-goėh koh peh-tsȧp-nî
生出來[加]囡仔疕
see-tshut-lâi [kee] gín-ná-phí
喙垃儳講著屎話
tshùi lâ-sâm kóng-tiȯh sái-oā
[人拺bē停寫??話]
[lâng sȧk-bē-têng siá ? ? oā]
看藍戲[恬恬是]看藍戲
khoànn-lâm-hì [tiām-tiām-sī] khoànn-lâm-hì
看查某水水 [嚷嚷真渴]
khoànn-tsa-bóo súi-súi [jiáng-jiáng tsīn-khoah]
[真]koh有按呢濟翁公仔無hiú[咱]人講的話...
[tsīn]koh ū án-nee tsē ang-kong-á bô hiú [lán]-lâng-kóng--ê oā

amhoanna wrote:Thanks, Andrew. It would be cool to be able to understand that "Northern Straits" Hokkien so effortlessly.
Haha, if only other forms of Hokkien were as easy.
The 4th line seems to end in 特别特别大.
That's possible ...
藍戲 means porn flicks?
Yes, it sounds English-derived, but so does the date order.
Could the end of the 6th line be 尖尖真闊?
Not sure - what is the connotation of 尖 tsiam?
And what is an 翁公仔?
Ang-kong is what Douglas would call an idol, hence pài-ang-kong. Ang-kong-á is a doll.
niuc
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by niuc » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:05 pm

SimL wrote:... I take heart at the "second half", which describes the survival (indeed, even flourishing) of Hokkien in this particular area of the arts.
Sim, not my intention to make you sad, but I think the "flourishing" in this context actually mean survival, still survive at getai, rather than it is expanding. The news mentions of a young man who can speak Hokkien fluently, this is good, meaning Hokkien may survive but nevertheless its sphere has been much decreasing.
'Another veteran getai artiste Zhuang Qingyu, 42, believes that "Hokkien just has the unique ability to bind people together".'
This is true among those in their 30s & above, as they usually still know at least some Hokkien, regardless whether they are Hokkien or not. Youngsters now usually only know English & Mandarin.

Today I just read that Singapore government rejected a recent request for "dialects" to be allowed on public tv (except some art programs such as Chinese opera). "Dialects" have been allowed in cinema, vcd/dvd and cable tv. The reason given is that too many Singaporean are still not good in Chinese (read: Mandarin), so adding "dialects" on tv programs will only be a further hindrance to master it well. In a sense it is true, most Chinese kids here are more well versed in English (or Singlish) than Mandarin. I think the government here is anxious to get all Chinese united (by forcing a common "mother tongue"), as Chinese here realize that "we are surrounded by non-Chinese (or even anti-Chinese) countries". Singapore is too fragile to allow space for racial intolerance, including rivalry among Chinese groups (as happened last time). I can understand the concerns, but I still think there can be better way, more "win-win" solution... but apparently government thinks of Singaporean as not able to be effectively multi-lingual. :roll:
amhoanna wrote:Two observations on Singapore and Holo, m̄ cai ū iáⁿ bô:

1. The great majority of (even young) people in Singapore can at least understand Holo. (Unlike Amoy.)
Amhoanna, as mentioned above, people around 30 and above usually can understand at least a bit, but that usually decrease in parallel to age.

O yeah, it is interesting that Hokkien is often used among late teenage boys doing National Service. Many learned their Hokkien there. May be this is due to perception that Hokkien is more macho. However, unlike Taiwan, ladies who know how to speak Hokkien here are not ashamed of speaking it. Btw, may be due to multilingual environment, Hokkien used here usually is not "cheem" (chim1 = deep) enough, and usually "rojak" (mixed with Singlish, Mandarin, Teochew, Cantonese and Malay).
2. A lot of S'poreans are riled up about the top-down effort to cleanse Singapore of the Holo/Tiociu language(s). (Unlike Taiwan, where most people don't really mind.)
Yes, Singaporeans like to complain. :mrgreen:
What did U guys think about the pro-Cantonese protests in Canton last summer? Could something like that ever happen in S'pore for Holo-Tiociu?
Never, as Singaporean do not dare to oppose the government openly, only complain and complain among themselves. Anyway demonstration usually is not allowed in Singapore. Certain protests are allowed but need license, and only at certain place. In a sense I agree that Singapore cannot afford to allow for demonstrations et al... the country is very small and it really needs political stability to survive.
If so ... S'pore could be the epicenter for a "Holo Renaissance". Heartlanders may struggle financially, but most of Asia looks up to S'pore in money matters. And "Holo-Tiociu" actually kind of exists in S'pore. Another plus——get everybody on board together.
It is possible that Hokkien can be revived here, although the chance is slim. The government here is for everything that can bring stability and money in. If Hokkien/Teochew Minnan can be of that value, I believe it will be supported. The point is in what way Hokkien (or any language in fact) can be used to support this country's agenda?
Languages happen and languages die, so no big deal. But Holo——better yet, Holo-Tiociu——still has lots of speakers, lots of life (in a broad sense), great urban presence in strategic locations... Tiâukiāⁿ too good for it to get buried by a few perverted cèngkheh. Maybe it just needs to be re-associated with two things: money and sex. M̄ cai áncoáⁿ cò siōng hó?
Indeed. Hokkien/Minnan is also a living "fossil" of much older Chinese than Mandarin. Sia*2-lang5 u7 ho2-pan7-huat4?
AndrewAndrew wrote:Yes, it sounds English-derived, but so does the date order.
Andrew, yes, English and most probably through Indonesian (film biru). The date order is also used in Indonesian. I kind of heard some Indonesian words there but I can't recall now.
amhoanna
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Re: Some more videoclips

Post by amhoanna » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:14 pm

Here's a video of kid actors in Kúiⁿtang speaking what they call Hok8-lo2, and speaking it "chim":

http://www.56.com/u23/v_MTIzODc1MDg.html

The subtitles are an interesting mix of púnjī and newly created jī.
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