Hokkien words in Thai

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:52 pm

Cûnnî tī Panamá, ū lâng mn̄g goá siōng sukah Hoekîkok tó ci̍t ê siâⁿchī, goá siūⁿ ci̍t ē'á liáu'āu kóng, "Honolulu", :lol: nn̄g ê lâng cū ánne chiò kah cin sóng, káná ce ū cin cē ìsù!

Lín goāmá ē siómoē sī ùi Sumatra khì Oa̍tlâm? Ahsī ùi Tn̂gsoaⁿ khì ê? ... The guy gave an example of the piracy. He said back when the refugees were leaving VN by boat, some groups would run into pirates from Thailand who took whatever they had and killed people in the process. I asked, Well, how do you know those were Teochews? He said, C'mon! Thailand, it's all Teochews!

I read that when the French had Indochina, the Teochews were the only Tn̂glâng that "gave them a hard time." The Hokkiens and the Cantonese kept to themselves and hated trouble. But the French couldn't control the Teochews. The Teochews were mixed in with the Kinh Viets and the Khmers. There was no line between them and the Viets and Khmers, just as there's no line between them and the Siamese. They were everywhere and they didn't care for French law.

They also weren't afraid to mix. Seems like everyone from Saigon and points south, or central Thailand, that I've ever met and asked ... has always been part Viet or Siamese, part Tn̂glâng, and the Tn̂glâng part is probably mostly Teochew. So it's true what the Hakkas say: when Teochews (and Hokkiens) leave China, they leave China like they mean it. :lol:
niuc
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:11 pm

Hmmm, m7-cai1 Honolulu u7-sim2-mi8 ki5-tha*1-e5-i3-sy3 hor7-lin2 chio3-ka4-hia4-song2 :P , m7-ku2 siong1-sin3 Ha7-ui1-i5 tia*7-tio8-si7-cin1-sui2, cin1-ho2 e7 sor2-cai7! Lui1 (ci*5) na7-siu1-u7-kau3, un2-na2 ai3-khy3-hit4-tau1 kia*5-kia*5. :mrgreen:

Gun2-i5-po5 (gua7-ma8 e5-sio2-ber7) si7-tui3-Tng5-sua*1 khy3 e0... i1 m7-pat4-lai5-In3-ni5, liam5-gun5-ma5 ma7-m7-pat4 i0.

Interesting info, I never knew Teochews gave French more troubles than Hokkiens and Cantonese there... In Singapore there was rivalry and even riot between Hokkiens and Teochews, which I found wierd upon learning that, as I thought both were Minnan and related in blood (though may be hundreds of years ago). Your previous post also quoted from an article mentioning different customs & rivalry between these two Minnan groups. Do you have more detailed info regarding what different customs & why the rivalry (compared to let say with Cantonese or Hakka)?

I found this: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiver ... 10241.html
Interesting info about some Hokkiens in Cambodia, also Teochews in Thailand. A Cantonese also mentioned about fierce rivalry between both. There is one from Javanized Hokkien who wrongly said Cantonese was spoken in Medan. It should be Medan Hokkien. Cantonese population is particularly small in Indonesia, compared to other groups, not sure why. I have two friends whose paternal side are Cantonese but they speak Teochew (the Chinese language of Riau archipelago), another one from West Kalimantan but he mostly speaks Hakka, and yet another from South Sulawesi but she knows Mandarin instead!
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:26 am

I don't know why Hokkiens and Teochews "had it in" for each other. Sibling rivalry? :P I once had a Hokkien roommate from Sùcúi (trilingual in b. Jawa, Melayu, English). He said his sītoālâng told him to never trust Tn̂glâng from Sumatra. Possible Hokkien vs Teochew dimension there?

Kóng tio̍h Honolulu, hoānsè hin lāité ê ìsù tō sī kóng "Goá bô beh chap Hoekî lah". Latin Bíciu lâng cin ài thiaⁿ lâng kóng hit khoán oē, iûkî sī Méhikō lâng, Panamá lâng, Kúbā lâng, Benesoélā lâng, in ē thiaⁿ kah chiò haihai, simhoe ciâu khui! :lol:

Here's an interesting story in Mandarin about how Indonesians tend to think of Teochew almost as a bumi language, "bahasa Pontianak", spoken only in Pontianak and nowhere else, least of all outside Indonesia: http://www.ispeakmin.com/bbs/redirect.p ... nextoldset ... Probably belongs in a new or resurrected thread.
niuc
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:59 pm

Sibling rivalry? Hmmm, may be! Come to think about it, more closely related groups usually either had/have better solidarity or worse enmity, e.g. Jews & Arabs, Chinese & Japanese, Javanese & Sundanese, Portugese & Spanish, etc...

We call Surabaya 泗水 Sy3-sui2. Btw, Indonesians usually don't like to hear people call their language (Bahasa Indonesia) as "Melayu". :P Your friend is not alone, a lot of Chinese from Java (majority Hokkien but also Teochew, Hakka, etc) don't like Chinese from Sumatra or Kalimantan. I believe this is due to something like "baba vs sinkheh". Chinese in Java usually have been javanized or sundanized, e.g. batik is an icon of indigenous Javanese culture, but the well known batik brand "Batik Keris" is owned by javanized Chinese. On the other side, Chinese from Sumatra or Kalimantan usually still speak Chinese languages (Hokkien, Teochew, Hakka, etc) and preserve more Chinese customs. Many Indonesian Chinese are wary of Medan Chinese, because the latter are perceived as excelling in business but also more cunning. However, not sure why, a few Chinese from Jakarta told me that they disliked Pontianak Chinese more.

About Teochew as a "pribumi" (bumi in Indonesian stricly means earth/ground, not native) language, may be only among pribumi (indigenous tribes) around Pontianak, as the city has Teochew majority, but I doubt they think of it as a pribumi language. Medan Hokkien is also called bahasa Medan, Bagan-ue is called Bahasa Bagan, because Chinese are majority in these places (at least in respective downtown). But pribumi in Sumatra never think of Bahasa Medan or Bahasa Bagan as a pribumi language. Palembang (Ku7-kang2) Chinese usually can speak Hokkien or Mandarin, but neither is called Bahasa Palembang, because the term is reserved for Palembang variant of Malay, and Chinese are not majority there.

Guan5-lai5 si7-an1-ni1... ti7 Honolulu ai3-tok8-lip8 e5 lang5 cue7 bo0? Ka4 Bi2-kok4 (Hue1-ki5-kok4) tui3-ke8 e5 tia*7-tio8-ka3-i3-thia*1 cit4-khuan2-ue7 e5 ma0! :mrgreen:
Kong2-tio8 Méhikō, 墨西哥 Bik8-se1-ko1, pe8-ue7 thak8 Bak8-sai1-ko1, cue3-gin2-a8 hit4-cun7 tio8-kam2-ka4 cin1-ki5-kuai3 an3-cua2 u7 kok8-ka1 mia*5-kio3 Bak8-sai2-ko1 目屎膏! :lol:
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:02 am

Kūkáng. What a great name for a city.

The story about "bahasa Pontianak" surprised me too, the part where the customs officials give people a hard time if they hear them speaking Mandarin, but give them service with a smile if they hear them speaking Teochew. I wonder how "bahasa Medan" or "bahasa Bagan" would do.

Kóng khí Ha'oái'ī ìsù tō sī kóng, "Goá bô ài chap lah, mài hō͘ goá tiâu tī Bíkok tāilio̍k tō hó a." Ah m̄ koh kóng sī ánne kóng, khêngsi̍t goá pēng m̄ sī tùi Hoekî tāilio̍k hiahni̍h bô cênggī. :) Taⁿ tī Ha'oái'ī bô kúi ê lâng beh to̍kli̍p. Gō͘ca̍p tang āu tō bô tiāⁿtio̍h ah. Btw, thanks for using "tùike̍h". That's a new word for me.
niuc
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:51 am

amhoanna wrote:Kūkáng. What a great name for a city.
It is written as 巨港, but I read somewhere that it was 舊港. Kūkáng was the capital of Sriwijaya.
The story about "bahasa Pontianak" surprised me too, the part where the customs officials give people a hard time if they hear them speaking Mandarin, but give them service with a smile if they hear them speaking Teochew. I wonder how "bahasa Medan" or "bahasa Bagan" would do.
That surprised me too. Well, sadly it is probably not true for Bahasa Medan or Bagan. The custom official must be from Pontianak or knew some orang Pontianak, as Chinese in Jakarta often don't know how Bahasa Pontianak sounds like, not to mention pribumi in Jakarta. I guess the relationship between pribumi and Teochews in Pontianak are much better than Medan or Bagan. Another place is Bangka where Hakka people comprise a large portion if not a majority. Pribumi in Bangka are in good terms with Hakka there, but I am not sure if they call it Bahasa Bangka or Bahasa Pangkal Pinang or any of that sort.
Kóng khí Ha'oái'ī ìsù tō sī kóng, "Goá bô ài chap lah, mài hō͘ goá tiâu tī Bíkok tāilio̍k tō hó a." Ah m̄ koh kóng sī ánne kóng, khêngsi̍t goá pēng m̄ sī tùi Hoekî tāilio̍k hiahni̍h bô cênggī. :) Taⁿ tī Ha'oái'ī bô kúi ê lâng beh to̍kli̍p. Gō͘ca̍p tang āu tō bô tiāⁿtio̍h ah. Btw, thanks for using "tùike̍h". That's a new word for me.
Bian2-khe4-khi3! Tong1-lian5 cia*5-cue3-Hue1-ki5-lang5, ly2 ke1-kiam2 ma7-e7-ai3-kok4. :mrgreen:

Btw last night while I was having dinner with my wife at Thai Express, suddenly I noticed that curry in Thai is "kaeng"! In Bagan-ue we call "normal" curry as king7! And king7-kue1 (curry chicken, beside lor2-ba4) is a must for Chinese New Year and practically all festive days in Bagan custom. What we call ka1-li2 in Bagan, e.g. unique ka1-li2-png7, is yellow-greenish and a bit sticky. It looks and tastes more similar to Japanese curry.
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:00 pm

Interesting Thai-Hokkien connection. Well, you said that the orang Bagan arrived from Songkhla-Singgora, so it makes sense.

In case anybody's interested, here are a map and an overview of Indochina, from a Chinese POV circa 1860ish.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ssical.png

http://zh.wikisource.org/zh/%E7%80%9B%E ... 4%E5%9C%8B

To skip to the Hokkien-relevant paragraphs, just search for 閩.

The guy mentions that Siâmlô and Oa̍tlâm were both crawling with people from 閩粵——1/6 of the population in Siâmlô. He says that Siâmlô was kind of backward at the time, far behind Oa̍tlâm. He recites the sea routes from South China to various destinations in these two places, but when it comes to Burma, he refers to the land route from Kunming.

In the map, the Johor area is called 息力. Wasn't Singapore called Si̍tla̍tpho or Sitla̍tpho in the past?
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:11 pm

It is written as 巨港, but I read somewhere that it was 舊港.
This reminds me of a debate that took place in Tákáu / Kohiông a few yrs back over how to say 巨蛋 in Holo and Hakka. The 巨蛋 is a major shopping center with a stop on the subway. The debate was resolved in favor of just saying it in Mandarin. Now, when the trains stop at the 巨蛋 station, the PA system says 巨蛋 in Mandarin 3x. I think they should've called it Kīnūi 巨卵. :mrgreen:
niuc
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:59 am

amhoanna wrote:Interesting Thai-Hokkien connection. Well, you said that the orang Bagan arrived from Songkhla-Singgora, so it makes sense.
From what I read, only 18 people came from there. Some said Songkla was only a transit. Subsequently a lot of migrants came directly from China... so in a sense I am a bit puzzled how Bagan got this Thai influence deeply into its language and culture that it has been thought as native.
In the map, the Johor area is called 息力. Wasn't Singapore called Si̍tla̍tpho or Sitla̍tpho in the past?
I never heard that before. I just asked my mom and she said my gua7-ma8 usually referred to Singapore as Sitlatpho. Thanks for the info! :idea:
Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:47 pm

Well, after having a look through the Singapore Hokkien dictionary, I found another explanation for "pa" as a shortening of Malay "pabrik". I suppose it is possible too, but then we would have to explain why it's in Thai Teochiu.

If it is a borrowing from Tai, then it even has a character to write it! In the Saw-ndip script used to write the ritual texts in the Tai languages of Kwangsi pa was usually written as 岜.

the dictionary also gave the compounds 開岜 khui-pa (to "open up" jungle) and 拾岜 khioh-pa (to pick up wood from the jungle? - actually, I wasn't sure what the definition was in English)

Has anyone heard of these compounds?
AndrewAndrew
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by AndrewAndrew » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:39 pm

Ah-bin wrote:Well, after having a look through the Singapore Hokkien dictionary, I found another explanation for "pa" as a shortening of Malay "pabrik". I suppose it is possible too, but then we would have to explain why it's in Thai Teochiu.
I'm unaware of any Malay word 'pabrik', unless you mean the Indonesian loan-word from Dutch 'fabriek', which doesn't seem relevant at all.
Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:54 pm

Haha, that's what I thought of...a "pabrik" where you make stuff. The dictionary doesn't actually say what "pabrik" means either. I'll go for Thai, because it has a character...
niuc
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:40 pm

Indeed Indonesian "pabrik" (factory) is from Dutch "fabriek", and I also don't see any connection to "pa1" (forest). In my variant, 開岜 khui-pa is to clear a forest and make it a field or settlement. I never heard the term 拾岜 khioh-pa.
amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:31 pm

Whatever the story is with pa, it looks like it might have something to do with kēng for curry. Over time, Niuc might discover even more Thai words in Hokkien? :)

The kīng pronunciation in Bagan suggests that there was an intervening "-eng" dialect of Hoklo, whether Hokkien or Teochew.

BTW, is the word kēng used in Penang?

It's interesting that pa is used in the Tai-Kadai languages in Kwongsai, and yet had to wait till it got to the Lâm'iûⁿ to get borrowed into Hoklo. Kwongsai, Kwongtung and Hokkien really turns out to be one of "those places where people come from".
SimL
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Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by SimL » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:01 pm

amhoanna wrote:BTW, is the word kēng used in Penang?
Hi amhoanna,

Do you mean for "curry"? I'm not aware of it. My normal word in PgHk is "gu3-lai2" (pseudo-sandhi on first syllable), which I imagine is borrowed from Malay.

BTW: (for the moment, in any case!) I've resolved to report every single spam I see on the Forum (but it's pretty overwhelming). Apparently some other readers are also doing the same (for which, thanks!). Personally, I've never understood how spammers think that they can stimulate people to buy their stuff by irritating the hell out of them!
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