Hokkien words in Thai

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Locked
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by SimL » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:58 pm

Hi amhoanna,
si1-ham1 (short a) = 螄蚶 = cockles
What a wonderful asset you are to the Forum. Indeed, those pictures are all of si-ham, so I guess you've solved the mystery of the origin of the "si". Thanks a lot! :mrgreen:
Anyway, I think (some of) you guys are lucky that your parents made ô'ácian at home.
In my youth in Malaysia, there were heaps of dishes which people would usually not cook at home, but only ever eat by going to a hawker stall - o-cien being one of them. Part of the reason my parents do it is because they migrated to Australia, where all these yummy dishes were no longer readily available (in the 70's, a lot of them - particularly the S.E. Asian as opposed to the Cantonese ones - wouldn't even have been available in Sydney Chinatown, let alone the remote country town that we moved to***). So my parents had to learn to cook such dishes themselves. And, in the now almost unimaginable days before Wikipedia and Youtube and Google, my parents often had to "guess and experiment" with the ingredients and recipes until they got it right! We even had to make our own tofu, from the powered stuff in small cardboard boxes. The taste and texture were pretty awful, but hey, we were at least able to eat "tofu"!

***: In fact, when we moved there, the (two) Chinese restaurants in town had only 2 forms of noodle soup, massively adapted for the Anglo-Saxon tastes of the time. They were called in the local language "long soup" (egg noodles in soup, with one or two wisps of vegetable) and "short soup" (wan-tan in soup, with one or two wisps of vegetable). I doubt if these terms are even *known* in the vastly more multi-cultural, culinairily sophisticated Australia of today... I can't know for certain, but I've always assumed that the "long" referred to the fact that 'noodles are long', while "short" referred to the fact that 'wan-tans are roundish, i.e. not long'.

PS. I know the name "tang-o" from my childhood, but have little memory of the taste nor look. Do you know the scientific and/or English name of it?

PPS. After writing the above, I tried googling, and both "Chinese" + "long soup" and "Chinese" + "short soup" produced 10,000+ hits, many of them .au sites (with recipes which reflect my description), so apparently, the terminology has lived on. I can't imagine any of my younger Australian friends using this term though - it has such a ring of the old, "anglo-celtic based" Australia to it. Ah-bin: have you come across these terms in your time there?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:43 am

Reminds me of my childhood too. But I'm guessing our situation was probably more like the suburbs of Sydney.

In the Anglo tradition of swapping tall tales... In Madagascar, every restaurant had a noodle soup called "soupe chinoise" (in French, even when the rest of the menu was in Malagasy). I was at this one stall in a sapphire town having this Chinese soup and I noticed the thâukeniû dumping other lângkheh's unfinished soup back into the pot to serve again. I finished my soup anyway. She asked us if we wanted seconds. I said no. Then, out of hospitality, she wouldn't let us pay for our meal. Lahsap cia̍h lahsap pûi!
What a wonderful asset you are to the Forum. Indeed, those pictures are all of si-ham, so I guess you've solved the mystery of the origin of the "si". Thanks a lot! :mrgreen:
Bô lah! Sī lí bô khìhiâm lah!
I know the name "tang-o" from my childhood, but have little memory of the taste nor look. Do you know the scientific and/or English name of it?
Here is the English Wiki on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garland_chrysanthemum

And some images:
http://www.google.com.br/images?hl=pt-b ... 96&bih=590
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by SimL » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:26 am

Hi am-hoanna,
I noticed the thâukeniû dumping other lângkheh's unfinished soup back into the pot to serve again.
Oh yuk!
And some images
Thanks.

This one http://www.hljh.tcc.edu.tw/teach/%E6%A0 ... 2%BF02.JPG looks a little bit like a very common herb they use here in Amsterdam :shock:.

The *leaves* of the images you gave links to look rather like those of rucola, a herb which has become increasingly used in the Netherlands in the last 5 years (prior to this, I hadn't come across it at all). It's particularly popular in salads and sandwiches, where it adds a strong, sharp flavour. Particularly the 1st pic below looks like what I call "rucola". I realise that the *stems* (especially the lower parts of the stems) of "tang-o" and "rucola" look very different; the former is thicker and "fleshy", the latter is thinner and "dry/stalky". [Plus, the scientific names are totally different, so they are probably not even related.] Sadly, seeing the pics of "tang-o" didn't bring back any memories of the taste.

http://thumb1.shutterstock.com.edgesuit ... 689249.jpg

http://www.google.nl/imgres?imgurl=http ... m=1&itbs=1

http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/pictures/eruc_04.jpg

http://ventnorpermaculture.files.wordpr ... mizuna.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YU_a19SaNSw/TAfcj ... G_2481.JPG
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:16 pm

Interesting gastronomic experiences of you all! :mrgreen:

We call 碗粿 'ua*2-ker2' as 'uai*2-a2-ker2'. There is also 碗糕 'ua*2-ko1', not sure if it is the same thing. 'ua2-ko1' is also used to mean non-sense stuffs e.g.
恁佇亂什麼碗糕? 'lin2 li2-luan7-sim2-mi8-ua*2-ko1'? = What (non-sense/unnecessary) things are you guys fussing about?

Neither I nor my mom ever eat or heard of tâng'o, even after seeing the pics.

Amhoanna, by káucânthap you mean 九層塔, right? Thanks, I just found out that the literary pronunciation of 塔 is 'thap4'. I always say it as 'tha4' (colloquial), and pronounce 九層塔 as 'kau2-can3-tha4' (same as 台語-華語線頂辭典). 層 can be 'can5' also, e.g. 籃層 'na5-can5' = "rantang" (multi-layer food container; please search "rantang" in google for pics).
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by SimL » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:58 pm

Hi niuc,

Great that you reminded me of the word 'ua*2-ko1'; I had forgotten about it.

I would never have guessed that the TLJ is 碗糕 though :mrgreen: (never really thought about it until now). I don't know if it's known in Penang Hokkien. My mother says it a lot (even when speaking PgHk), but that could just be a borrowing she uses from her more Amoyish variety. Somehow, I find it difficult to picture my father or members of his family (the real PgHk speakers) saying it. My mother uses it *only* in the phrase "ha-mi-ua*-ko" though, never in free combination with other words.

I never knew that the household object you described is called a "rantang" in Malay/Indonesian. In Penang, we don't call it a 籃層 'na5-can5' though. Instead, it's called an 'ua*2-can5', which I presume is 碗層. Indeed, if I'd heard the word 'na5-can5' I probably wouldn't have been able to work out what it meant, even in context. [Note: Google image search gives about 2 hits of rantangs for both "籃層" and "碗層".]

I checked at http://www.internationalscientific.org, and 層 is indeed given as being pronounced 'can5' in Hokkien. But then, what is the character for "can3" meaning "storey"? As in "si3-can3-lau5" (= "a four storey building"). From meaning, I would have thought 層 would be the right character, but internationalscientific.org doesn't give "can3" as a known pronunciation.

Also, in Malaysian English, a "rantang" is called a "tiffin carrier" - "tiffin" being a rather old-fashioned word for "lunch" (images of white explorers in pith helmets, with elephants and memsahibs in the background!).

Talking about "layers" and "levels" (and food!), I'm reminded of "kuih lapis":

http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kue_lapis
http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuih_lapis

(It surprised me to see that there is both an Indonesian as well as a Malaysian Wikipedia...)

I believe this is called kau-teng-kue in Hokkien, right?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:35 pm

I also only use oáⁿko in the context of símmih oáⁿko.

By the way, what's the actual tone contour on the "mi(h)" for you guys or your family members? (High-level in TW.)

I checked in Pe̍h'oē sió sûtián, and basil is actually káucànthah in TW Hoklo, with an alternative (regional) pronunciation of káuciànthah. So, in line with Bagan. POSST also has the hanji down as 九棧塔 instead of 九層塔, although while POSST doesn't always do hanji, the hanji that they DO list aren't always púnjī.

This explains why I have a hard time getting restaurants and stalls to give me extra KCT. :) Káucànthah sounds way better too. On a different note, I wonder if the Mandarin word jiucengta 九層塔 was borrowed from, or through, Hoklo. Káucànthah has an Indian ring to it. Consider also that Hoklo cuisine, at least in TW, uses way more basil than any other Tn̂glâng cuisine I know of. (Do you guys also have the 3 Cup-type dishes, etc.?) And how heavily it's used in VN and Siamlo. So maybe KCT arrived in Tn̂gsoaⁿ in Hoklo ships.
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by SimL » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:09 am

hi amhoanna,

My "mih8" is high level (short).
SimL wrote:I checked at http://www.internationalscientific.org, and 層 is indeed given as being pronounced 'can5' in Hokkien. But then, what is the character for "can3" meaning "storey"? As in "si3-can3-lau5" (= "a four storey building"). From meaning, I would have thought 層 would be the right character, but internationalscientific.org doesn't give "can3" as a known pronunciation.
Anyone know the answer to this?
Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:29 pm

It should be 層, I think it might be a colloquial word, the thak-chhEh-im would be cheng3, I guess. I can think of another pair of readings with the same correspondence: 等 has tan3 and teng3, but I've seen another character suggested as the bunji for tan3. I wonder if there are more pairs like that, or whether the chan3 and tan3 had their own bunji?

I can;t remember where I said I'd find something out, but I came to my office today and found out that lhung with the lateral fricative is indeed used for the meaning 菜 (sam-phoe) in the K'ai-p'ing dialect that is next door to Toisaan.
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:07 pm

SimL wrote:My mother uses it *only* in the phrase "ha-mi-ua*-ko" though, never in free combination with other words.
amhoanna wrote:I also only use oáⁿko in the context of símmih oáⁿko.
Come to think about it again, that is quite true for us also, since for the cake we usually say 'uai*2-a2-ko1' instead of just 'ua*2-ko1'.
I never knew that the household object you described is called a "rantang" in Malay/Indonesian.
Sim, I think I heard of 'ua*2-can5' 碗層, but very rarely. 籃層 'na5-can5' in my variants only refers to the tiffin carriers, but 'lan2-tang1' (from "rantang") is often used to mean the dishes carried in a "rantang". So far I know there are caterers in Indonesia and Singapore that deliver "rantang" to their customers, usually 5 days a week and we can subscribe by monthly basis. This is called 'pak8-lan2-tang1' or 'pak8-chai3-kiam5' (pak8 = to tie or to have a contract), but never 'pak8-na5-can5'.
I checked at http://www.internationalscientific.org, and 層 is indeed given as being pronounced 'can5' in Hokkien. But then, what is the character for "can3" meaning "storey"? As in "si3-can3-lau5" (= "a four storey building"). From meaning, I would have thought 層 would be the right character, but internationalscientific.org doesn't give "can3" as a known pronunciation.
Since 曾 can be read as 'can1' (surname), it is quite "regular" that 層 is 'can5'; literary: 'cing5'/'ceng5' (cf. 當代泉州音字彙). Ah-bin also gave a good parallel i.e. 等.

Meaning wise, I also think of 層 can also be 'can3' or 'ting5' (cf. 台語-華語線頂辭典). However, may be this "broader" meaning is from Mandarin... who knows last time 層 was only for 'can5', while 棧 = 'can3' (as in Amhoanna's post; 棧 'can3' also means a storeroom or to hoard) and 重 = 'ting5' (also means to repeat). I am not sure, but sometimes I use 層 for all of them.
Also, in Malaysian English, a "rantang" is called a "tiffin carrier" - "tiffin" being a rather old-fashioned word for "lunch" (images of white explorers in pith helmets, with elephants and memsahibs in the background!).
Thank you for the English term, Sim! I used to think that 籃層 / "rantang" was very Chinese and SE Asian... but it seems to be from India?!?
I believe this is called kau-teng-kue in Hokkien, right?
I wonder if it is also found in China or Taiwan. Yes, it is 'kau2-ting5-ker2' 九重粿 also in Bagan, and usually the colours are red, white, green and yellow... repeated to form literally 9 layers! :mrgreen:
amhoanna wrote:
I checked in Pe̍h'oē sió sûtián, and basil is actually káucànthah in TW Hoklo, with an alternative (regional) pronunciation of káuciànthah. So, in line with Bagan. POSST also has the hanji down as 九棧塔 instead of 九層塔, although while POSST doesn't always do hanji, the hanji that they DO list aren't always púnjī.
Amhoanna, actually in Bagan I never knew káucànthah. My mom also came to know it in Taiwanese tv programs. However, káucànthah sounds more "native" to me than káucânthap.
Consider also that Hoklo cuisine, at least in TW, uses way more basil than any other Tn̂glâng cuisine I know of. (Do you guys also have the 3 Cup-type dishes, etc.?) And how heavily it's used in VN and Siamlo. So maybe KCT arrived in Tn̂gsoaⁿ in Hoklo ships.
Hmmm, it's interesting if Taiwanese cooking uses more basil than others (esp. Minnan area and SE Asian Hokkiens). In Singapore, 三杯雞 (lit. 3 cup chicken) is common in stalls selling Taiwanese food.
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by SimL » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:34 pm

I'm away on a course for a week, hence very little posting. The PCs here in the training centre have no Chinese characters at all, so all the postings show just blocks with hexadecimal values! Will respond in more detail when the course is over.

Just two very short responses which don't need me to be able to read what's being said in Chinese characters.
niuc wrote:So far I know there are caterers in Indonesia and Singapore that deliver "rantang" to their customers, usually 5 days a week and we can subscribe by monthly basis.
The same system is known in Malaysia, also in tiffin carriers, but the name of the service doesn't explicitly refer to this. It's just called "pak8-ciah8" (which I have always assumed was "tied-food/meal", as you are "tied" to the provider for a period of weeks, months, etc (but I could be quite wrong about the TLJ for "pak8").
niuc wrote:I used to think that 籃層 / "rantang" was very Chinese and SE Asian... but it seems to be from India?!?
I think of it as very Chinese as well. I have difficulty imagining exclusively curries being stored/delivered in them. My theory is that the word "tiffin" itself is definitely Anglo-Indian from the British Raj, but was then adopted in Malaya, and extended in the term "tiffin carrier" (which is hence mostly relevant only in the " Far East"). But I don't know for sure.

Oh! Our mental images (niuc's and mine) are both quite wrong. I just (re-)checked on Wikipedia (I found this link when 'rantangs' first came up in this Forum, and I thought I'd posted it, but apparently I forgot (and even forgot it's contents...). It's definitely Indian as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffin_carrier
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by SimL » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:17 am

Seeing as "ham1" were mentioned in this thread, this seems like a good place to post my question.

Does anyone know what "mussels" are called in Hokkien? I was speaking to a new friend of mine (who is Taiwanese), and he wasn't sure (because he says he's not very good with animal names). He ventured the idea that in Taiwan, "ham-a" (with dimunitive) is used as a generic word for "shellfish" in general (well, perhaps not all shellfish, but oysters, clams, mussels, etc: edible bivalves, so to speak). But he qualifies his statement with the fact that he's not good with animal names.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussel
Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by Ah-bin » Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:12 pm

Searching through D&B, Barclay has "sai-ti-chih, a saltwater bivalve like a mussel, considered very good eating."

and

koe-kioh (+), shell-fish, like a mussel, a bunch of them is like a tortoise foot.

So we have "like a mussel" twice....but not actually "a mussel" haha.


This is a digression (not having the answer about the mussels - I might find out tomorrow when I go back to my place and get a look at my dictionaries)

I met someone once who was doing a survey on all the different ways for saying shellfish in different varieties of English. Apparently every variety classifies and uses words such as "clam" and "shellfish" differently.

In NZ we don't even say "clam" (except in "clam up") and use pipi, a loan from Maori in its place. Abalone is also always called paua, I didn't know what abalone meant before I started learning Chinese, it doesn't exist in the normal NZ vocabulary.

I wonder what abalone is in Hokkien?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:58 pm

Classic thread. Hokkien, Thai... What more could U need? I've been reading up on mainland SEA since I'll be going there soon. It seems that much of Hatyai speaks fluent Hokkien? Now that's interesting...

I'm not much good with animals and plants myself, but I can tell between ô'á, hammá, and lâ'á ... b/c they show up in my soup. Sim, maybe your friend is a vegetarian? :lol: I think hâmmá and lâ'á would both translate to "clam" in English. The once-and-future Holopedia is pretty good with animals:

http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A2-%C3%A1
http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham-%C3%A1
http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%94-%C3%A1

I don't know if there's a word for shellfish in Hoklo. I might say "ô'á lâ'á hiah ê lūi". People who live in villages on the coast probably have 10x as much vocab for these things, and a richer diet too. I don't see mussels on my plate too often here. What Ah-bin said probably applies to Hoklo too, that shellfish have different names in different dialects of the same language.

And, abalone:
http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau-h%C3%AE

I like "paua" though, it sounds "more Hokkien" than pauhî. :lol:
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by amhoanna » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:14 pm

I'll take the liberty of bringing up "Hokkien in Hatyai" again, since it seems to fit the thread. A lot of the Hokkien, Hat Yai search results seem to be about Hokkien mee, but there's also these "encounters with sex workers" reports written by guys from MY/SG, and apparently there's all these young whores in their 20s speaking fluent Hokkien, but not necessarily Mandarin. Now that tells U a lot: the typical scenario in SEA would be: Hokkiens shedding the language in favor of Cant/Mand/other language; young women abandoning Hoklo first; Hokkiens economically well-off, daughters not going into sex work. I wonder if any of them learned Hoklo outside the home environment, and if there's a lot of Tai-Hoklo mixing in HY, as in Kelantan?

Maybe unsavory to some, but really interesting to me b/c the web is otherwise mostly silent about language usage in HY.
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hokkien words in Thai

Post by niuc » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:41 am

In my variant, what we call lai5-a0 (lâ'á) is the small type with very thin shells. Wikipedia pictures for clam and lâ'á are what we call kap4-pa1. Blue mussel is chai2-luan5. Most probably chai2 is 彩 "colourful"; I am not sure about luan5. There are also kong1-tai7 and thor5-kui2 塗鬼, but I don't remember how they look like. My mom says that kong1-tai7 is pale in colour, very thin shells and smaller than chai2-luan5; thor5-kui2 is even smaller and greenish and usually has a lot of sand trapped inside. Abalone is pau5-hy5 in my variant. And we don't have a term for shellfish. :mrgreen:

What is Hokkien term for Hatyai? I heard of hap8-cai1 but not sure if that is accurate.
Locked