龍????

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
alexchau
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龍????

Post by alexchau » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:01 am

Does anyone know how to say this 龍 in Hokkien????


Sometime I heard as Ling but Heard as Lung in Taiwan.


which one is right????
hohomi
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Re: 龍????

Post by hohomi » Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:23 am

The vernacular reading of 龍 is "ling"; the literary reading is "liong".
"lung" is Mandarin.
SimL
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Re: 龍????

Post by SimL » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:19 am

In Penang Hokkien "leng5" (where tone5 has approximately the same tone-contour as Mandarin tone2).

In many varieties of Hokkien (Amoy?) it is "liəng5". This is a standard correspondence in sound: an "-iəng" where Penang Hokkien has "-eng".

BTW: If you're unfamiliar with IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet), "ə" is the unstressed middle vowel, like the "e" in "bitter" (for varieties of English which don't pronounce "-r"), or like the first syllable in English "catastrophe" (for those who say the first syllable in a way which doesn't rhyme with "cat", sort of "ketastrofi").
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Re: 龍????

Post by hohomi » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:03 am

SimL wrote:In Penang Hokkien "leng5" (where tone5 has approximately the same tone-contour as Mandarin tone2).

In many varieties of Hokkien (Amoy?) it is "liəng5". This is a standard correspondence in sound: an "-iəng" where Penang Hokkien has "-eng".

BTW: If you're unfamiliar with IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet), "ə" is the unstressed middle vowel, like the "e" in "bitter" (for varieties of English which don't pronounce "-r"), or like the first syllable in English "catastrophe" (for those who say the first syllable in a way which doesn't rhyme with "cat", sort of "ketastrofi").
"leng5" must be the result of Teochew influence.
SimL
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Re: 龍????

Post by SimL » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:07 am

hohomi wrote:"leng5" must be the result of Teochew influence.
We say "leng1" (= "milk"), "keng2" (= "choose"), "seng3" (= "indulge/spoil a child"), "heng5" (= "return, give back (money, books, etc)", "eng5" (= "easy, free"). Would this be Teochew influence too? My non-Penang Hokkien maternal relatives say "kiəng2", "siəng3", "hiəng5", "iəng5".
niuc
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Re: 龍????

Post by niuc » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:43 am

Hi Sim & Hohomi

Personally I don't think it is Teochew influence, i.e. those Hokkien words were "king, sing, hing" then due to the influence became "keng, seng, heng" in Penang variant. Teochew itself is a group of variants within Minnan continuum, so it is hardly surprising that some Hokkien variants share certain things with Teochew. Some told me that Zhao'An 詔安 variant in Zhangzhou prefecture was closer to Teochew rather than Hokkien. Is it still the case today?
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Re: 龍????

Post by aokh1979 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:08 pm

This is what I told a good friend from Shantou (Swatow):

Minnan split into Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu few hundreds of years ago. People from Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu left China, came to Penang and the 2 languages met up in 1 city again. You will notice Penang Hokkien is actually a colourful mixture of both Tsiang Tsiu (including Tsuan Tsiu) and Tio Tsiu (including Suann Thau). Isn't it amazing that the separated variants, at some point, are merging into one again here ?

Silly thought. Ha.
:P
xng
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Re: 龍????

Post by xng » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:48 pm

aokh1979 wrote:This is what I told a good friend from Shantou (Swatow):

Minnan split into Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu few hundreds of years ago. People from Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu left China, came to Penang and the 2 languages met up in 1 city again. You will notice Penang Hokkien is actually a colourful mixture of both Tsiang Tsiu (including Tsuan Tsiu) and Tio Tsiu (including Suann Thau). Isn't it amazing that the separated variants, at some point, are merging into one again here ?

Silly thought. Ha.
:P
What's the history for the split ? I heard of 2 versions.

1. Fujian governor gave ChaoShan region to Guangdong province ie. the boundary is redefined.

2. Tio Ciu people migrated from Fujian province into Guangdong province.

Is Tio Ciu closer to Ciang Ciu or Cuan Ciu in terms of speech ?
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Re: 龍????

Post by aokh1979 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:28 am

It's going to be Tsiang Tsiu. I would say.

Tsuan Tsiu is on the north. Tsiang Tsiu at the middle, cross the border towards south, it will be Tio Tsiu. If I understand correctly, 1st batch of Han people went from Tiong Guan (Zhong Yuan) to Tsuan Tsiu, inter-marriage with many local ethnic groups. Then the 2nd batch went to Tsiang Tsiu.

There's a disturbing saying in Penang, from old generation, that a Tsiang Tsiu father would want his "pure" Han daughter marry a Tio Tsiu guy rather than Tsuan Tsiu guy, because Tsuan Tsiu people are "mixed". No offence, I am just telling what I hear from old people here. That is why Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu live together very well in Penang, although we do have many Tsuan Tsiu descendants.

I am not sure about other cities in Malaysia, it is indeed amazing that in Penang:

Tsiang Tsiu is spoken, and 2 is pronounced noo
Tio Tsiu is also spoken, and 2 is pronouned no
I grew up in Hai Lam (Hainanese) speaking district in Tanjung Bungah, and 2 is pronouced no, too !

The 3 variants (major ones, not sure about others) that read 2 as noo / no instead of n'ng amazingly came to the same island and live together......
xng
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Re: 龍????

Post by xng » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:09 am

aokh1979 wrote:It's going to be Tsiang Tsiu. I would say.

Tsuan Tsiu is on the north. Tsiang Tsiu at the middle, cross the border towards south, it will be Tio Tsiu. If I understand correctly, 1st batch of Han people went from Tiong Guan (Zhong Yuan) to Tsuan Tsiu, inter-marriage with many local ethnic groups. Then the 2nd batch went to Tsiang Tsiu.
I think there's some prejudice here. If I understand correctly from China history. The only city and capital in the Min Kingdom was Hok Ciu. There weren't many people living there 2000 years ago so how could there be many cities ?

That's why Hok Ciu contains a lot of Minyue words.

Cuan Ciu city was only formed when the han chinese migrated there from north china.
aokh1979
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Re: 龍????

Post by aokh1979 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 2:51 am

Yes, that's correct. I meant Tiong Guan, which is the North Region. People migrated from there to Tsuan Tsiu. I know Baiyue or Guyue lived in Min region long time ago, some of them around Tsuan Tsiu area, not so much 2000 years ago but during Tang Dynasty, if I remember correctly.

I heard about Tsiang Tsiu and Tio Tsiu's connection from some old people here. Frankly, I don't think there's any "pure" or "mixed" Han, it's really hard to identify and we don't really care. Do we ? My ancestor's from Hok Tsiu, I think I have Baiyue or Guyue blood in my body. Ha. Ha.

I heard from someone from a forum before, that the "peak" of Best Hokkien is the mastery of both Xiamen and Tsiang Tsiu variant, you basically can understand every other variant if you manage to speak the 2 variants well. I have colleagues from Tsiang Tsiu who actually talk just like a Xiamen local when he chats with Xiamen people. Then on the phone when they talk to family, you can hear very obvious Tsiang Tsiu words and pronunciations.....

:lol:
SimL
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Re: 龍????

Post by SimL » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:11 am

niuc wrote:Hi Sim & Hohomi

Personally I don't think it is Teochew influence, i.e. those Hokkien words were "king, sing, hing" then due to the influence became "keng, seng, heng" in Penang variant. ...
Hi niuc,

Yes, thanks for focussing my thoughts clearly on this topic. When a set of words rhyme in one variant and the same set rhyme in another variant, but with a different rhyme, then this is generally an indication that they all started with the same rhyme, and one dialect (or both) shifted the vowel. Borrowed words stand out because they don't fit this pattern.
hohomi
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Re: 龍????

Post by hohomi » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:08 am

aokh1979 wrote:actually talk just like a Xiamen local when he chats with Xiamen people
I can do that, too.

Xiamenese is the easiest to learn in all the variants.
Unlike Zhangzhouese who like to learn Xiamenese(I heard that they used Xiamenese on some of their broadcast), Quanzhouese are proud of their own variant.
Quanzhouese consider their own variant as the "standard". Instead of learning to speak just like Xiamen local, they talk to Xiamen local in Quanzhouese.
SimL
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Re: 龍????

Post by SimL » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:05 pm

hohomi wrote:Instead of learning to speak just like Xiamen local, they talk to Xiamen local in Quanzhouese.
This can work quite well. My Penang Hokkien paternal relatives and my more Amoy-like maternal relatives always spoke their own variant when meeting one another. It was quite amusing to listen to. Up to the 1990's, it was quite normal for Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians to just speak their own language when meeting up with any of the other two. THAT was very interesting to listen to. Sadly, this practice seems to have died away, because nowadays most Scandinavians speak English very well, and (as far as I can tell), they prefer to speak to one another in English, where there are fewer misunderstandings from "false friends" (like "rolig" meaning "quiet" in Danish, but "exciting" in Swedish (or something like that, my Scandinavian languages are a bit rusty!)).

On a related note, do any of the older members of this Forum know the TV comedy series which used to be broadcast in Malaysia in the 1960's and 70's? I think the name in Hokkien was 汝苦無我苦 "li khO bo gua khO" (would that be: "you have a hard time, not me"?). It was an amusing series because it featured 4 friends, each speaking his own dialect. I suppose that must have been Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, and one other.
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Re: 龍????

Post by hohomi » Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:20 am

aokh1979 wrote: Tsuan Tsiu is on the north. Tsiang Tsiu at the middle, cross the border towards south, it will be Tio Tsiu. If I understand correctly, 1st batch of Han people went from Tiong Guan (Zhong Yuan) to Tsuan Tsiu, inter-marriage with many local ethnic groups. Then the 2nd batch went to Tsiang Tsiu.
Tsiang-Tsiu was the last to be established. That was because there were barbarians living in the area between Tsuan-Tsiu and Tio-Tsiu. The central government sent an army from Henan(河南) to supress the barbarian "rebel". After that, the central government decided to set up a Tsiu(州) there.

There are still many connections between tsuan-tsiu variant and Teochew. For example:
風 has a vernacular reading "huang" that can be found in tsuan-tsiu and tio-tsiu.
猪、箸、汝、去、师、处、除 have a "ɯ" final in Quanzhouese and Teochew.
卵、算、光、软 have "ng" final in Quanzhouese and Teochew.
These similarities are not shared by Zhangzhou.
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