Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
xng
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby xng » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:07 pm

Yeleixingfeng wrote:Rea

Indeed, as stated by xng, a lot of my friends are oblivious to the Malay borrows in Hokkien*, like lui(duit), ga-lo(gaduh), kau-eng(kahwin)** and ciah-hong (makan angin).

* not sure about the previous generation
** some say it is 媾姻. I don't know. Haha.



It seems that there are a lot of arrogant and rude people in this forum bad-mouthing me during my long stay away from this forum ? Even when what I am trying to do is educate the people on the origins of the so-called 'hokkien' words but NOBODY here thanked me ? :shock:

媾姻 is a borrowed word just like 巴剎 (pasar) is a borrowed word bcos most people in the past had poor command of the hokkien (or any chinese dialects for that matter as it was deemed useless when compared to English/malay in the past before the rise of china after the 1990s). And TV media was only prominent during the last 50 years or so, even then it was restricted to mandarin and cantonese dialects.

by the way, 媾 is pronounced 'kio' and not 'kau'. If you watch taiwanese hokkien shows, the most common usage for divorce is 'li ien' 離緣 but 'li hoon' is not wrong either.

So one error gets 'inherited' through several generations. words such as 'suka', 'pasar' substituted the real hokkien words for generations that they have forgotten about the original word. Penang hokkien were more 'malaynised' than singapore hokkien with additional words such as 'batu' when they use 'cio thau'. With the advent of taiwanese hokkien shows, we hope that more and more people realise this fact.

食風 is NOT borrowed from Malay, rather the malay borrowed from chinese. cantonese also use 'sik fung'.
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/characters/152/?full=true

sadly, most malaysian chinese hokkien (especially those english ed) can't distinguish which are hokkien, malay or english words as it is one big rojak.

Malaysian cantonese has less malay words as I think it is because of better cantonese penetration in the media.

As you rightly pointed out, 鐳 is actually for radium.
金 is for the metal element, 雷 is for the sound 'lui'.

There is absolutely no basis for this as I have repeatedly pointed out, it comes from the malay word 'duit' and since chinese can't pronounce 'd' initial consonant, it is approximated into 'l'. It is also similar to 'durian' which is approximated to 'liu lien' and not 'du lien'.

The next thing I will hear from 'intelligent' people here is that 'liu lien' originated from hokkien too because it starts with 'l' and not 'd' ! :lol: furthermore, it is published in chinese newspaper as 'liu lien' with chinese characters.

Even malaysian cantonese uses 'lui' but if you were to go to china guangdong province, NONE of the natives there know what 'lui' is.

I just browsed through my old nemesis ah bin silly and stupid argument again. The 'lui' sound is so entrenched in malaysia and indonesia that it is even put as an entry in a recent dictionary but why is it that this word (meaning money) cannot be found in china's dictionary before the Ming dynasty and before the chinese came to SEA which is 15th century and earlier ? There's your answer.

I can also put 'pasar' in a hokkien dictionary :lol: since it is published everyday in chinese newspapers in malaysia but that doesn't mean 'pasar' originated from hokkien or even mandarin. It actually originated from malay word 'pasar' which the malay borrowed from the arab 'bazaar'.
Last edited by xng on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

xng
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby xng » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:57 pm

amhoanna wrote:I mostly ignored xng's posts. His single-minded point of view actually had little or nothing to do with Hokkien -- a language he didn't speak and wasn't trying to learn. .


I think I can speak better hokkien than most people in this forum. What makes you so sure that I don't speak hokkien and wasn't trying to learn ? Have you met me before ? By the way, I have been speaking hokkien since I was a small child.

I am also learning new hokkien words everyday from watching taiwanese hokkien shows everyday. I can even confidently say at this point in time I can converse at an intermediate level with a native taiwanese without mixing malay or english words.

Sadly, most malaysians can only speak at the 'beginner' level.(including your beloved Ah-bin)

To make such a narrow minded statement without substantiating it just goes to show how narrow minded, rude and DUMB you are (which puts you in the same group as Ah-bin) ! :roll:

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:24 am

Looks like you're back from cutting and pasting to the China History Forum......

xng wrote (dec 23 2010):

The northerners create 'Lang' character because that's how it sounds to them with a 人農 sound but that's not the original character. At that time in middle chinese, the sound has changed to 'Yin'. The original character is a simple 人, that's how 'man' was written 5000 years ago.


You made this up, just admit it for goodness sake. You make up stories about things to prove your point, and never ever admit that you are wrong about anything.

Even malaysian cantonese uses 'lui' but if you were to go to china guangdong province, NONE of the natives there know what 'lui' is.


Rubbish, they do, they just have a different meaning for it. Copper coin. I never said it didn't come from Malay. So you are lying if you imply that I did.

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:38 am

Xng wrote

食風 is NOT borrowed from Malay, rather the malay borrowed from chinese. cantonese also use 'sik fung'.

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/characters/152/?full=true


Care to click on the little link to the full entry? Or did you just hope we would miss it?

http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/words/15681/

Little writing underneath says:
[2] calque from Malay "Makan Angin"

Another one of xng's greatest hits! Ah, you do make or lives so interesting!

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:41 am

xng wrote
I think I can speak better hokkien than most people in this forum. What makes you so sure that I don't speak hokkien and wasn't trying to learn ? Have you met me before ?


Perhaps the fact that you still haven't even mastered the most basic rudiments of any Hokkien romanisation system, that does tend to make people wonder....

xng wrote
By the way, I have been speaking hokkien since I was a small child.


Oh, you must have only been learning it for one or two years then.

amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby amhoanna » Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:02 pm

Xng, hoanngiả lứ tuínn ·lải. Lứ cịt'ẹ tuínn, tạkgẻ lóng piàn ka' oạ'thiàuthiàu ·khílải. Ǹgbạng thiann lứ kạ tạkgẻ kàisiạu lứlảng Kitlongphơ / Pasang te' kóng ẻ Hokkiàn'oẹ. Lứ nạ be'ài, goá ũ be' kạ lứ hunhióng Ỏng Lẻ sớ cècok Huilịppin Họ'ló'oẹ ẻ lọk'im, liáu'ạu chéngkàu ·lứ khoànn he hảm lứlảng te' kóng ẻ Họ'ló'oẹ ũ hámi' sio kảng a'sĩ hámi' bỏ kảng.

Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Yeleixingfeng » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:56 pm

... Okay.....

Xng, since you are back...

I must admit, I was quite disappointed when you said 食風 in the sense of travelling is Sintic. 吃西北風 itself evidently proves that the concept of wind-eating originally registered on a negative connotation. Much like how Bees are symbols of diligence; lotus are symbols of purity.. Wind-eating indirectly depicts how someone is so poor that he can only eat "wind".

Anyway, I'm sure you know that...

siamiwako
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby siamiwako » Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:39 pm

aokh1979 wrote:Samseng does sound Chinese to me, and it's connected to 3 sacrifices to God in the ancient time, according to some old folks in Penang. However, it is unknown to Hokkien in China, as far as I check. Maybe some people do, I dunno.

Yes, this is still practised by Chinese Filipinos in Philippines. I've seen a few times during 七月半 3 sacrifices were offered to 好兄弟 anything that has meat.

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:06 am

xng wrote:

Even malaysian cantonese uses 'lui' but if you were to go to china guangdong province, NONE of the natives there know what 'lui' is.


This was bugging me, because I knew somewhere earlier I had found evidence to the contrary
Sorry to re-quote myself, but I couldn't track down the pdf of this book, I think it is on my computer at home. Now again, note that I am not saying that lui is a native Chinese word, just that the above statement that NONE of the natives will understand is simply untrue. If he had said "NONE of the natives of Canton" that would be more accurate. Lui is known many localities in Kwangtung province, however.

by Ah-bin » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:32 pm

Lui is recorded in the 漢語方言大詞典 (p.7402) as a word for a copper coin 銅鐳 in Kaiping 開平, Huizhou 惠州 (in Hakka) Jieyang 揭陽 and in Teochiu, as well as in Amoy as a general word for money. From asking around I found out in Liuzhou 柳州 (Guangxi) 銅鐳 was the word for copper coins too.


Then tonight I found two more nice references, both from within Kwangtung, one for varieties of Hakka where the meaning is "copper coin" and also a slang term for money. It is interesting that they have their

Hakka p. 110.JPG
From 羅美珍 客家話通用辭典 p.110
Hakka p. 110.JPG (94.7 KiB) Viewed 23268 times


and the other is from a survey of Chinese vocabulary published in 1988, which gives "lui" as the only word for money in Teochew, so it must have been in fairly common use when the survey was made.

The 19th century dictionary of Swatow I have doesn't have "lui" at all for money, which suggests the word was borrowed within the last century, I'm guessing the fifty years 1890-1940.

I find it fascinating how widespread the word became in China. The Hakka example is interesting too, because Moi-yen Hakka makes a distinction between chhian-e 錢仔 (a copper coin with a hole) and lui-e 鐳仔 (a copper coin without a hole). Hui-chou 惠州 Hakka uses lui for both. This must have passed out of use by now, since China no longer uses copper coins of any kind, and I doubt that there are many people alive who remember the copper cash issued by the Ch'ing! MacIver's Hakka-English Dictionary (1920?) doesn't have Lui so perhaps it was the 20's or 30's when the word became popular, perhaps with the advent of western, hole-less style coinage.
Attachments
Money in Chinese.JPG
from 漢語方言詞彙 p. 218
Money in Chinese.JPG (203.23 KiB) Viewed 23268 times

amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby amhoanna » Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:17 pm

In Panama Spanish slang, the word for MONEY is "chen chen". :P

SimL
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby SimL » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:16 pm

xng wrote:It seems that there are a lot of arrogant and rude people in this forum bad-mouthing me during my long stay away from this forum ? Even when what I am trying to do is educate the people on the origins of the so-called 'hokkien' words but NOBODY here thanked me ?

I don't know if you'll see this, as you seem to have gone quiet again. I was away for a long time and couldn't reply when this first came in. Now, it seems a bit irrelevant, as it is so much later, but I feel I need to say this anyway.

If one person here thinks you're rude, arrogant and abrasive, then sure, it might be that person's thin skin. But if a large number of people think that, then perhaps you should take the time and energy to wonder if they might have a point.

I have never had an issue with the points you tried to make. Time after time, I have conceded where I thought you had valid points. I have amply demonstrated that I understand what you are saying, even if I don't agree with you. The two things I find objectionable in your posting style are: 1) You never show that you have ever understood a point of view which differs from your own. If you don't agree with a point of view (as Mark does not, with a lot of mine), that's fine. All I expect is that the point of view be understood. 2) You never concede that you are wrong. I, Ah-bin, and others have picked you up on particular statements you make, some of them totally inaccurate / completely wrong, said with your usual 100% confidence. When they are pointed out to you, you just move on to the next topic. If you want respect for the points which you make which are correct, you should give respect for the points of others which are correct.

So, to re-iterate, I've never had an issue with the points you tried to make. It's your style of posting which irritates and alienates me completely. This is foolish on your part, because I would imagine that you'd like people to adopt your point of view. Alienating them by being as abrasive as you are is obviously not going to achieve that goal.

It's quite amusing to see you describe the other people here as "arrogant and rude". When we discuss among ourselves, none of us have a perception of the others as being "arrogant and rude" - quite the contrary, this Forum is one of the most polite, friendly, and respectful ones that I know of. This despite the fact that some of our opinions are radically different / in opposition to many others - e.g. some people hating vs liking simplified characters; some people liking vs hating borrowed words; whether to write Hokkien in characters only vs roman letters only vs a mix; the nature of Chinese history; the nature of the Hokkien identity; what is a dialect vs a language; is Teociu actually a form of Hokkien; etc. There are probably as many radically differing opinions as regular participants here, but we all treat each other politely and with respect. The *only* arrogant and rude person I see on this Forum - I'm sorry to say - is you.

Finally, I would like you to know that at one stage you came across as pretty much lacking any credibility. This was when you said (I paraphrase) "I don't know Douglas" or "What's Douglas?". Douglas is the lexicographer who wrote the Amoy-English dictionary in the late 19th century - widely acknowledged as a *masterpiece* of lexicography. Even on a Chinese-only forum on Hokkien, I think someone who claimed to know "quite a bit about Hokkien" would be expected to know what that dictionary was (even if he/she didn't know the dictionary in detail). For an English-language forum on Hokkien, this was ignorance beyond belief. For me, you lack credibility most of the time, but this was just such a shining example that I feel you ought to be told.

I apogize to the others for raking all this up again. It's probably bad karma, but if someone doesn't tell you this, how is your karma ever going to change?

amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby amhoanna » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:19 pm

(Ta̍kgê hó... I'm excerpting this from a post on the Canto forum. Ūi: Saigon. Thought U guys would find this interesting.)

Today's gentleman referred to MONEY as lui 鐳, pronounced exactly as it would be in Amoy-type Hoklo: rounded back /u/ in the diphthong (not fronted), in a high, level tone. The etymon was active for making compounds. At one pt he said 車鐳 che-lui. In the context, I'm pretty sure he meant BUS FARE. Chin 錢 didn't seem to figure in his vocabulary at all.

xng
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby xng » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:55 pm

http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1629

See the post from Hong:

Engwai,I have given the book by Prof.Lim from China who said lui is from malay.In Chinagchiu,china there are people saying lui which could be someone from South east asia brought this word back..I have another theory that this word is from portugese because Cambodia also using this word 500 years ago.They have contact with Portugal started 500 years ago.

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:49 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df4ycZo81ek&list=PLmm4BcCm313qGOqcc_56CjyUMAYJ47xoN&index=12

"Lui" used in China at 1:53!

xng
Posts: 386
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby xng » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:54 pm

Ah-bin wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df4ycZo81ek&list=PLmm4BcCm313qGOqcc_56CjyUMAYJ47xoN&index=12

"Lui" used in China at 1:53!


Good job! You've proven that 'lui' is actually a Hokkien word spoken in Chiangchiu, China.
You don't need to be obnoxious to prove your point.

The origin of some words can be quite challenging and controversial.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duit

Quote: Duit is also the Malay and the informal Indonesian equivalent of the English term "money". This happened because of centuries of Dutch rule in Indonesia.

So there are three theories now.

1. The Chiangchiu Hokkien in China imported the word 'lui' from the dutch

2. 'Lui' is actually a native Chinese word. Then why is it that Northerners, Cantonese, Quanzhou and Taiwanese people don't use the word? Only Chiangchiu Hokkien use the word?

3. The Chiangchiu Hokkien in China imported the word 'lui' from Nanyang relatives (Penang or Medan)

Which is the true origin?

Definitely, the 'lui' was not imported from Malay word because the Malays imported the word from dutch.
see dutch proverbs below

Putting a duit in the bag (Een duit in het zakje doen) - to contribute something
He is a duit-thief (Hij is een duitendief) - he is very greedy
He has much shit, but little duit (Hij heeft veel kak, maar weinig duiten) - he is a boaster
To be courageous like a three-duit haddock (Moed hebben als een schelvis van drie duiten) - to be cowardly
To give someone of four duit back (Iemand van vier duiten weerom geven) - to tell someone the truth

4. Please find me a Quanzhou video that also speak 'lui'. Forget about Taiwanese video because I watched it all the time and I've never heard of 'lui'.
Last edited by xng on Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:48 pm, edited 6 times in total.


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