Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
niuc
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby niuc » Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:36 pm

Hi Sim

As you most probably remember, although roughly I think I can understand about the glottal stop thing, it doesn't differentiate the meaning for me. In my variant e.g. 'si2' and 'si4' sound exactly the same, but having different sandhi. But it's great that for you (and others), glottal stop does differentiate the meaning! 8)

SimL
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby SimL » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:15 pm

Hi niuc,

I understand your point, but my tone contour for tone2 and tone4 are very different anyway (tone2 = high or high very slightly falling; tone4 = low, abrupt termination), so the issue is very different for me.

However, here I'm talking about *initial* glottal stop. The difference between 'ia' (with initial glottal stop) and 'ya' (with initial glide). The latter is (I think) only in the word "ka-ya" and only because it's a borrowed Malay word. I think all my native Hokkien words with initial "i-" have a (very light) initial glottal stop. For example, I pronounce "print" or "to answer" as "in" as IPA [ʔin], not [in] or [jin]. In this particular situation, the absence or presence of the initial glottal stop is also not a distinction in meaning: it's just that it's more normal for me to pronounce it with.

niuc
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby niuc » Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:09 pm

Hi Sim

Probably I misheard, apparently in Singapore it is 'ka1-ia1', same as Penang. :mrgreen:

amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby amhoanna » Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:51 am

Worked on my Malay a little yesterday and it occurred to me, could Hokkien "cim" come from or be related to Malay "cium"?

xng
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby xng » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:46 am

amhoanna wrote:Worked on my Malay a little yesterday and it occurred to me, could Hokkien "cim" come from or be related to Malay "cium"?


No, because it is also used in Taiwan. I saw a chinese character for it but have forgotten.

aokh1979
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby aokh1979 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:44 am

amhoanna wrote:Worked on my Malay a little yesterday and it occurred to me, could Hokkien "cim" come from or be related to Malay "cium"?


"Tsim" is widely used in China and Taiwan but there was no absolute character for it. Some use 唚 to record it, and some 斟. It is very likely a loanword from Malay. Have you checked indigenous languages in Taiwan and see if it also exists ?

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:25 am

Chiu Tiang-ip notes chim (to kiss) as a Malay loan into Hokkien - and it's a mainland dictionary. BTW, I can't recommend this dictionary enough.

niuc
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby niuc » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:02 pm

If cim1/tsim1 is from Malay (which is possible/probable), i wonder what was "previous" Hokkien word for "to kiss"? And Mandarin usage of 親 for this meaning (beside 吻), is it influenced by tsim1/cium?

Btw, "cium" in Indonesian has 2 meanings: to kiss and to smell.

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:30 pm

Hmm...that question led me to look a little deeper

Chim is in Barclay and MacGowan without any comment on a foreign origin. I'll have to look in a Hokchiu or Hainanese dictionary (just tried) can't find it in the Haikow one, also couldn't find it in my Lui-chiu dictionary.

BUT C.C. Baldwin's Manual of the Foochow Dialect (p.247) Has ching choi 烝嘴 (does final -ng in Hokchiu correspond to final -m in Hokkien? Looks like it does ching is "deep" 深 in Hokchiu!)

So it looks like there is a "native" origin for this word after all, and it is used in some other types of MIn.

amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby amhoanna » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:40 pm

So maybe it's a coincidence ... or a "deep cognate", for the Austric/Austro-Tai set.

My go-to source for Austronesian vocab doesn't list KISS, but it does have SNIFF/SMELL. Malay "cium" comes in under this gloss. Nothing doing, Formosa-wise.

http://language.psy.auckland.ac.nz/austronesian/word.php?v=29

I read that some coastal Formosan languages, like Siraya and Amis, loaned a lot of words from Malay. I don't know if this was via Luzon languages or, hey, maybe even Cham. It's funny, but maybe in the old days (say, 1400) if a Formosan met a Hokkien in a bar in Pattani, they might've spoken Malay.

Hokkien: Lu dari mana?
Formosan: Dari Taiwan.
Hokkien: Taiwan di mana, tak tahu lah. :mrgreen:
Formosan: Lai, lim!
Hokkien: Ha? Lu pun cakap Hokkien?

Interesting points brought up by everyone. If there's no proto-Sinitic word for KISS, but there is one for proto-Ban (Min), does that mean that the proto-Bans kissed people, but the ancient Sinas didn't? :mrgreen:

niuc
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby niuc » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:55 am

I c, Ah-bin, so it may be "native" Min.

Amhoanna, your Malay is impressive! But what do you mean by proto-Sinitic there? Is 吻 a "recent" word?

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:47 am

Maybe there was no monosyllabic morpheme. I just looked up 吻 in the 古代漢語詞典 and the meaning was "lips" hence 接吻 meaning "to kiss" Japanese also had no native word, they use 接吻 seppun (suru) or kissu (suru).

niuc
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby niuc » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:34 pm

Oh, so it's 接吻 and the meaning passed to 吻. i c!

amhoanna
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby amhoanna » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:51 pm

Actually, my Malay is pretty limited. That's why I can only write dialog for 15th century Hokkiens and Formosans. :lol:

I was mostly going off a hunch regarding 吻. I don't know much about Old/Middle Chinese, but I use the HM(CV) test. What is it in Hoklo? What is it in Mandarin? And what is it in Cantonese and Vietnamese, if it's w/i what I know? Extra weight on Mando and Canto for being "more Sinitic" in general. Kind of a crude tool, but it seems like most Sino-linguists (the professionals) are allergic to inferring anything about ancient or classical forms of "Chinese" based on modern evidence. Besides the phonology.

Back to the topic of 吻, it seems like it only exists in Canto and Mando as part of the daily-use literary layer. It doesn't seem to exist in Hoklo at all. Then again, could it have something to do with búnchiò? (Do you guys use this word, and how?)

Ah-bin
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Re: Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

Postby Ah-bin » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:09 pm

I can't find a single morpheme for "kiss" in Vietnamese either, and I tried Ong-Be and it had a word which can be split into "to taste lips" I think.

de Souza's "Manual of the Hailam Colloquial (Bun Chio Dialect)" p. 65 has "sóih" for kiss.
Taiwanese Si-yen 四縣 Hakka has siông-chîm 相唚 (romanised in Kau-fi Lo-ma-su 教會羅馬字), the Hakka version of POJ) but the chîm may be due to Hokkien influence.

Perhaps this word (as a single morpheme) is a lacuna in many East Asian languages? Interesting that Min (and perhaps Hakka) has a single morpheme and others do not. Most of the vocabularies that I have on hand at the moment don't even seem to have it.


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