逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
beh.oh.tai.uan.ue
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:17 am

逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby beh.oh.tai.uan.ue » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:57 am

各位朋友 逐个好 :!: 我的名叫做哥林 我來自美國 我真愛學閩南語 不閣我這馬才是初學者爾爾 我閩南語無輪返 閣講這馬我攏袂會寫彼个POJ啦~ 歹勢 請逐个來諒解~ 希望會當共逐个濟濟學著物件 :lol: 我高中的時拵佇台灣留學一年 自彼時拵我著開始覺ka學著閩南語有趣味 其實我嘛有佇咧學日本話 佇台灣留學的彼个年也是真愛學日本話 本來就是愛去日本 之後就是我的彼个留學項目(扶輪社) 著決定將我送到台灣去 8)
現在我是大學畢業生 欲共各位朋友繼續我對閩南語的學習! :mrgreen:

謝謝逐个! 8)

Hi everyone! Colin from USA here! Hoping to improve my very choppy and beginner Hokkien! At this point I have not really formally studied Hokkien, so I cannot really write POJ-- I don't really dare to try because I fear it would not be intelligible at this point! Maybe I can get help learning it here 8)
Anyway, I studied in Taiwan my junior year of high school and since then have wanted to learn Hokkien. I had studied Japanese and the similarity of the Hokkien pronunciation to Japanese "on-yomi" (音讀 JP:音読み) made me curious about learning Minnanyu. So, I hope to continue to learn Minnanyu with all of the wangyou!! Xiexie dajia! 8)

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby Abun » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:11 am

哥林你好!

這馬才落筆寫予你,真正足歹勢喔。毋知為啥物,猶毋過最近兩三禮拜我想欲來論壇的時陣攏是起錯誤,所以這馬才看著有新用戶來矣!
橫直,我這个阿文歡迎來到阮這个論壇,看著有新人(我的意思是講新來的人,毋是拄仔結婚矣的翁仔某xD),又閣講共我仝款是對台灣閩南語感覺趣味的「阿啄仔」,真正予我不止仔歡喜 :D 毋知你敢有看著我的「自我紹介」,我成一年前嘛共你仝款新加入這个論壇,希望有人通參詳、得著一寡仔好建議,也感覺遮的別的人攏誠有學問,對閩南語的知識足深,對我真有幫贊。雖然我無清楚,面前敢有台語母語的會時常來遮,但是對台語真熟的人我知是有幾若位,又閣猶有閩南語的其他方言的母語者,尤其是馬來西亞檳城的人。
雖然我的台語猶是講了無遐好,但是猶是會曉看你的台語已經真袂䆀,毋知是佗位學的?敢是家己自學爾?若是按呢我真正足佩服喔。用佗一寡材料矣?

又閣講這个歡迎喔,向望你定定來參詳!


Hey Colin!

I'm sorry I didn't write to you earlier; for some reason, I couldn't access the forum the past few weeks, I always got an error message, so I didn't notice until now that there is a new member!
Anyways, a warm welcome to the forum from me, it's nice to see a new member joining again, especially if it's an "a-tok-á" interested in Taiwanese, just like I am :D Maybe you saw my self-introduction cause I'm actually still rather new myself. I joined this forum roughly a year ago for pretty much the same reasons as you I suppose, to find somebody to discuss Hokkien with and to maybe get some tips. And I feel the other users all really know what they're talking about. Anyways, they've been a big help to me, especially with grammar questions. Although I'm not entirely sure whether or not we have a Taiwanese native speaker among our regulars right now, but there certainly are quite a few with a deep knowledge about it as well as native speakers of other dialects of Hokkien, especially Penang Hokkien.
Although my own Taiwanese still is much more limited than I'd like, I know enough to see from your text that you didn't start learning just yesterday. Did you achieve that level with self-study alone? If so, kudos to you! What kind of materials did you use?

Welcome again, and hope to meet you in the discussions!

P.S.: As for POJ, it really is not that hard to learn. Considering you mainly used the Taiwan MoE characters, I'm guessing you're familiar with Tailo (臺羅)? The differences between Tailo and POJ are so minor that you'll have no big problem reading one if you know the other (in fact, Tailo was developed on the basis of POJ): Tailo ts- and tsh- become POJ ch- and chh-; Tailo u- in front of -a or -e becomes o-; Tailo oo becomes o͘ (an o with a dot at the upper right side), stuff like that. Differences are pretty much limited to exchanging a few letters, that's all, no systemic differences.

P.P.S.: The following things I would have expressed in a different way (各位先輩, please correct me where I'm wrong):
    - 我真愛學閩南語: sounds in my ears like you have to (because 愛 can mean "should"), I would say 我真想欲(siũnn-bueh)學閩南語
    - 我攏袂會寫彼个POJ: I'm not entirely sure which word you were thinking of when writing 袂會. I would use bẽ-hiáu (buẽ-hiáu if your variant tends to Tsuân-tsiu (泉州) type pronunciation), is that what you mean? In that case, I would write it as 袂曉 (although opinions differ on how best to spell the first syllable, I think the second one is undisputed)
    - 希望會當共逐个濟濟學著閩南語: I'm not sure you can use 濟濟 like this in 閩南語. I did hear 多多(to-to)保重 before, so apparently 多多 can be used in that way, although it may be a Mandarinism, I'm not sure. Whatever the case may be, the adverb sounds a little odd to me when combined with the 著, even to my Mandarin ear (that is to say 多多學到閩南語 sounds weird to me as well). It sounds better to me without the 著
    - 我著開始覺ka學著閩南語有趣味: I'm not quite sure about "覺ka"... did you mean Mandarin 覺得? I always use 感覺 (kám-kak) to express that meaning in Hokkien. Also, the 著 feels off to me again and I personally would say 真(有)趣味, though I don't think your version is wrong there.
    - 彼个年: 彼年 (年 has the measure word included, just like in Mandarin)
    - 之後: definitely exists but I haven't heard it often enough yet to get a feeling for its use in Hokkien. In Mandarin it feels to me like it's denoting future. In your case, I would probably use 後來 (āu--lâi)
    - 將我送到台灣去: As far as I know 將 exists in that sense, but 共 (kā) feels more natural to me. Also, I would say 送去台灣
    - 現在 seems very Mandarin to me
    - I learnt 出業 (tshut-gia̍p, actually comes from Japanese 卒業) for "to graduate," although I'm not sure if the word 出業生 exists
    - you seem to have mixed up 共 (kā, roughly the equivalent of Mandarin 把 but used more extensively, for example on people you talk to) and 佮 (kah, and/with) a few times. Although I also have problems deciding which one to use sometimes, I'm pretty sure they're different words.
Last edited by Abun on Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby SimL » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:38 pm

Hi Colin,

I've been away from this Forum for many months (busy with Mandarin). Your posting seems like a nice trigger to cause me to come back.

Abun, it wasn't just you - there was quite a strong feeling of consternation (not to say alarm, panic, and despair) among the "old" regulars (I say "old", as you are definitely now a "new regular"!) when all the forums of this website disappeared for a couple of weeks recently (we're also in touch with one another outside the Forum)! Thank goodness it's back on line now :P.

A very warm welcome to you here Colin. I hope you'll be able to get the help you need for Taiwanese. I know a third person (a native speaker of Dutch) who is learning Taiwanese as well. I'll see if I can encourage him to join the Forum too.

Thank you to you (and Abun) for having the thoughtfulness to write English parallel text. Of all the regulars here, I'm the one whose command of Hokkien is probably the weakest, and my command of Chinese characters is definitely the weakest (character vocab - in Mandarin - of hardly 1,500). Without the English, I would have only the vaguest idea of what you're talking about.

All the best in your endeavors!

SimL

Chih
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:42 am
Location: Taiwan & the Netherlands

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby Chih » Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:29 am

Hi Colin & Abun,

I am A-Chi/Tsi. I just heard from Sim that there are two friends who are learning Taiwanese on the forum. I am a native speaker of Taiwanese & Mandarin. I just finished my master in linguistics last year and Taiwanese is one of my main interests. It is very nice to know other people who are also interested in Taiwanese & Hokkien dialects. I hardly login to this forum but I think I will come back more frequently and join your discussions. Please also feel free to get into contact with me.

By the way, although I have already had an account for some years, this is actually my first post here!

SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby SimL » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:17 am

Hi A-Tsi!

Sooooooooo nice to see you here! Hope you can help Colin in the coming days and months, though I know that people in the academic world are always overwhelmed with work!

Look forward to seeing your answers here.

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby Abun » Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:43 am

SimL wrote:I've been away from this Forum for many months (busy with Mandarin). Your posting seems like a nice trigger to cause me to come back.

All hail Colin for bringing Sim back :lol: Seriously, it's nice to have you back^^

SimL wrote:Abun, it wasn't just you - there was quite a strong feeling of consternation (not to say alarm, panic, and despair) among the "old" regulars (I say "old", as you are definitely now a "new regular"!) when all the forums of this website disappeared for a couple of weeks recently (we're also in touch with one another outside the Forum)! Thank goodness it's back on line now :P

I did suspect as much, I got the same results on several computers and different networks, although I couldn't rule out the possibility that for some reason the server could not be reached from Germany but from other countries. Anyways, I had been thinking about writing to you and the other regulars of whom I have other means to communicate. I would probably have done that ages ago, had I not had my head full with a bunch of other stuff.

SimL wrote:Of all the regulars here, I'm the one whose command of Hokkien is probably the weakest

Sim, you're being too modest again, at the very least about your Hokkien skills. I have yet to meet a native speaker of a non-standardized language with as much background knowledge and analytical understanding about it as you :mrgreen:

Chih wrote:I am A-Chi/Tsi. I just heard from Sim that there are two friends who are learning Taiwanese on the forum. I am a native speaker of Taiwanese & Mandarin. I just finished my master in linguistics last year and Taiwanese is one of my main interests. It is very nice to know other people who are also interested in Taiwanese & Hokkien dialects. I hardly login to this forum but I think I will come back more frequently and join your discussions. Please also feel free to get into contact with me.

Welcome to you, too, A-Tsi (if I may say so even though your account is older than my own :lol:) Good to have another member with a native speaker's feeling of Taiwanese. Hope to see you more often here, if you're prepared for a lot of rather stupid questions asked in a very complicated way on my part :lol:

Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby Ah-bin » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:22 am

Welcome to the Hokkien forum, Colin.

I also started off by learning Taiwanese, before I was distracted by Southeast Asian Hokkien. Most of my basic knowledge of how Hokkien works grammatically came from answers I got here from people like Sim! You won't find any answers as detailed or well thought out anywhere on the internet in English as you will here. Amhoanna knows Taiwanese inside out, in addition to his kno

I haven't looked at Taiwanese much in the last three or four years, but I still recall a lot of the things I had to unlearn in order to speak North Malaysian Chiang-chiu accented Hokkien, so i may still be of some use.

Also, if you are after some pdf's of older Taiwanese teaching materials, I have a pile, just tell me what you are after, and i'll try to come up with something.

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby amhoanna » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:07 am

Ta̍k'ê hoan-gêng hoan-gêng, ciāh pá--bē.

Kolîm, khòaⁿ khoán lí Tionghôa-gú (MANDARIN) íkeng ōh kài kú, ahsī cūlâi tō ēhiáu--ê. Góa ê búgú sī Tionghôa-gú, Bânlâm-gú sī chiâu ciok kú ciah kā kùhoat chiâu hōo hósè--ê. Jú ōh ciah jú cai, goânlâi Bânlâm-gú kah Tionghôa-gú kùhoat cha-tōa-bé.

哥林、看款汝中華語已経斈吤久、抑是自來と会曉 ·个。我个母語是中華語、閩南語是 chiâu 足久正共句法 chiâu 予好势 ·个。愈学正愈知、原來閩南語佮中華語句法差大碼。

beh.oh.tai.uan.ue
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:17 am

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby beh.oh.tai.uan.ue » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:53 am

各位朋友恁食飽未
感謝逐个的回覆 予我真歡喜 希望會通佮逐个繼續學物仔
本來我佇台灣的時拵就開始學一點仔閩南語 啊這馬我就已經離開台灣六年嘍
近來幾月我著想欲發出努力來學閩南語呢 阿毋閣攏無人會曉佮我教
這馬我就知影本來佇遐有遐呢仔濟的人甘願幫贊我來學予我真感心 :D
有人佮我教就毋再閣彼呢歹學咧
I am very pleased to see this forum is up and running again and am glad to meet you all!
There's a lot to take in at once :lol:
Anyway, I hope to continue to learn and share with everyone in the future!

gam-sia tak-e!

Chih
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:42 am
Location: Taiwan & the Netherlands

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby Chih » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:38 am

Abun wrote:P.P.S.: The following things I would have expressed in a different way (各位先輩, please correct me where I'm wrong):

Hi, Abun, below I would like to add some comments as a speaker of Taiwanese.

Abun wrote:- 我真愛學閩南語: sounds in my ears like you have to (because 愛 can mean "should"), I would say 我真想欲(siũnn-bueh)學閩南語

愛 can also mean "to like/love; to enjoy doing something". 想欲 would mean "to want or would like to", which also implies that he has not started learning it yet. I think it is fine to use 愛 here.

Abun wrote:- 我攏袂會寫彼个POJ: I'm not entirely sure which word you were thinking of when writing 袂會. I would use bẽ-hiáu (buẽ-hiáu if your variant tends to Tsuân-tsiu (泉州) type pronunciation), is that what you mean? In that case, I would write it as 袂曉 (although opinions differ on how best to spell the first syllable, I think the second one is undisputed)

Also be7-hiang2 with -ng at the end is commonly heard in Taiwan.

Abun wrote:- 希望會當共逐个濟濟學著閩南語: I'm not sure you can use 濟濟 like this in 閩南語. I did hear 多多(to-to)保重 before, so apparently 多多 can be used in that way, although it may be a Mandarinism, I'm not sure. Whatever the case may be, the adverb sounds a little odd to me when combined with the 著, even to my Mandarin ear (that is to say 多多學到閩南語 sounds weird to me as well). It sounds better to me without the 著

Agree. 濟濟 is not used the same way as in Mandarin and even in Mandarin it does not sound very good in this case. I would probably say 希望 (or 向望 ǹg-bāng) 會當 kap 逐家做伙來學閩南語, although this sentence is quite different from the original one.

Abun wrote:- 將我送到台灣去: As far as I know 將 exists in that sense, but 共 (kā) feels more natural to me. Also, I would say 送去台灣

Ka7 is more colloquial and natural. Tsiong1 sounds more formal and literary, and also appears more often in lyrics. Besides, tsiong1 in Taiwanese functions just as Mandarin 把 or 將, whereas ka7 has more functions than tsiong1.

Abun wrote:- 現在 seems very Mandarin to me

tsit4-ma2 sounds more natural in this sentence. However, I am not sure how Mandarin the word 現在 is. It has already been used (or adopted) for quite a long time. It also appears in the dictionary 台日大辭典, which was published in Japanese era when Mandarin had not really been introduced to Taiwan yet.

Abun wrote:- I learnt 出業 (tshut-gia̍p, actually comes from Japanese 卒業) for "to graduate," although I'm not sure if the word 出業生 exists

Good that you know the word 出業! I wonder where you learnt it. It has become quite old fashioned. Nowadays 畢業 and 畢業生 are more commonly used in Taiwan and you hardly hear people say 出業.

Abun wrote:- you seem to have mixed up 共 (kā, roughly the equivalent of Mandarin 把 but used more extensively, for example on people you talk to) and 佮 (kah, and/with) a few times. Although I also have problems deciding which one to use sometimes, I'm pretty sure they're different words.

Yes, grammatically and tone-wise they are different.

Amhoanna 兄, 汝 ê 文筆 看-來 感覺面熟ah面熟,毋知汝敢是 POJ 讀冊會 ê 阿天兄 leh?

Abun
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:15 pm

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby Abun » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:44 pm

Hi Chih,

thanks for your corrections, I'm always happy to learn^^

Chih wrote:愛 can also mean "to like/love; to enjoy doing something". 想欲 would mean "to want or would like to", which also implies that he has not started learning it yet. I think it is fine to use 愛 here.

Ah right, I hadn't thought of 想欲 implying that he hadn't started learning yet...

Chih wrote:Also be7-hiang2 with -ng at the end is commonly heard in Taiwan.

Cool, I hadn't heard ẽ-hiáng/bẽ-hiáng yet. Somehow reminds me of how young Koreans sometimes add a -ng sound to the end of sentences to make it sound more casual (or in the case of girls sometimes to sound cute). Do you feel there's a difference between ẽ-hiáng and ẽ-hiáu? Maybe a difference in the underlying tone like in Korean, a difference between speakers from certain regions or between different age groups...

Chih wrote:I would probably say 希望 (or 向望 ǹg-bāng) 會當 kap 逐家做伙來學閩南語, although this sentence is quite different from the original one.

Btw, do you feel there's a slight difference between 希望 and 向望 or do they feel completely interchangable to you?

Chih wrote:tsit4-ma2 sounds more natural in this sentence. However, I am not sure how Mandarin the word 現在 is. It has already been used (or adopted) for quite a long time. It also appears in the dictionary 台日大辭典, which was published in Japanese era when Mandarin had not really been introduced to Taiwan yet.

Hm, then could it have been adopted in literati circles who were familiar with the Mandarin court language from the mainland? Anyway, I have heard it in lyrics before, but never in casual speech, so I guessed that if it's used, it's pobably either Mandarin influence or rather literary speech. Am I roughly correct there?

Chih wrote:Good that you know the word 出業! I wonder where you learnt it. It has become quite old fashioned. Nowadays 畢業 and 畢業生 are more commonly used in Taiwan and you hardly hear people say 出業.

To be honest, I don't recall where I first heard 出業. The dicts I use most often all have it so I guess, I looked it up some time. I probably even did find 畢業 then but suspected Mandarin influence and settled for learning the non-Mandarin word first :lol:

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: 逐个好!我是新來的人嘍

Postby amhoanna » Tue May 06, 2014 9:54 pm

出業, 畢業 (w/ two pronunciations) and 卒業 are all used in TW. The first is probably a corruption of the third. All are common, but 卒業 is markedly less common.

The Vietnamese also use 卒業. Yet another example of older Chinese etyma being preserved in both Hokkien and Vietnamese.

However, I am not sure how Mandarin the word 現在 is. It has already been used (or adopted) for quite a long time.


My guess is that it's a fairly old Chinese word, although most likely literary.

I say it's old b/c it's pretty at-home in Vietnamese, as "hiện tại". Newer, post-Mongol Chinese words tend to sound weird to the Vietnamese ear and as a group tend not to have been adopted into VNese.

Amhoanna 兄, 汝 ê 文筆 看-來 感覺面熟ah面熟,毋知汝敢是 POJ 讀冊會 ê 阿天兄 leh?

正是、汝是底人、目睭有够利。


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