Pronunciation of some characters

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
elmer
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby elmer » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:04 am

With my last post, I forgot to add the chinese characters. That of course, is rather senseless :oops:

Amhoanna, you sent me an e-mail? I am afraid I did not receive it.

So again:
閔 bín bun5
叔 chek siok
奎 ke kui
吳 gô͘ ngô͘
祚 chà chò͘
倡 chhiong chhiong3
洙 chu su5
冠 koan koàn koann
贊 chàn chān
章 chiuⁿ chiang
程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5

thanks!
Elmer


By the way, Ahoanna: you sent me an e-mail? I am afraid I did not receive that one.

regards,
Elmer

amhoanna
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby amhoanna » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:23 am

Email: re-sent.

閔 bín bun5
bín

叔 chek siok
siok

奎 ke kui
Question forwarded to a Facebook forum.

吳 gô͘ ngô͘
ngô͘

祚 chà chò͘
chō͘ (NOT SURE)

倡 chhiong chhiong3
chhiang or chhiàng;chhiàng is used in a modern word meaning advocate, but it's also homonymous with a word meaning TO VOCALLY GO AGAINST. I am guessing the actual reading was chhiang -- basically 昌 with a radical.

洙 chu su5
chu

冠 koan koàn koann
koan, koàn. I would go with koan. See below on T3.

贊 chàn chān
chān -- applying the general rule that when there is a T3/T7 variation, the T7 variation is Ciangciu. The Tai-Jap dictionary seems to indicate (implicitly) that both readings are present in all dialects. Lastly there also seems to be a bias toward T7 in names. Maybe T3 sounds "too sharp".

章 chiuⁿ chiang
chiang

程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng

aBun, what do U think?

elmer
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby elmer » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:58 am

Again, thank you so much. Basically what's lft now is in the table below. Some of the characters we already discussed, I know. If somof yo can help me with these last characters, it would be great(again).

best regards,
Elmer


char. POJ remarks
愉 jû 角美-variant?
瑜 jû 角美-variant?
矩 kú 角美-variant?
琛 thim
瑗 oān
穫 hò͘
鎰 ek
程 Amhoanna: têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng
奎 ke / kui
良 Amhoanna: liông / liâng (Elmer: I tend to Liâng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling
量 Amhanna: liōng / liāng (Elmer: I tend to liāng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling
冠 Amhoanna: koan (maybe koàn)
強 Amhoanna: kiông/kiâng
祚 chò͘ / chà. Amhoanna: chō͘ (NOT SURE)
倡 Amhoanna: chhiang (maybe chhiàng)
所 sé
璧 phek / pek
恂 sun / sûn

Abun
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby Abun » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:30 am

amhoanna wrote:章 chiuⁿ chiang
chiang

If this is a surname (of a wife maybe, or the family a daughter married into), it should be chiuⁿ, if I'm not mistaken.

amhoanna wrote:程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng

I would say thêng as well, but I'm not sure whether or not this is Mandarin bleeding into Taiwanese Hokkien.

The others seem good at first glance

elmer
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby elmer » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:34 am

Yes, in this case 章 is not a surname.

regards,
Elmer

amhoanna
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby amhoanna » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:30 am

* Elmer, if ANY of the glyphs (besides 諭) are for surnames, not given names, pls let us know. The readings are 90% different for surnames.

程 thêⁿ thêng thiann5 tiann5 teng5
têng or thêng. I have a hunch it was thêng

I would say thêng as well, but I'm not sure whether or not this is Mandarin bleeding into Taiwanese Hokkien.

It's part of a larger pattern of variation btw aspiration and non-aspiration in T5 initials. It goes back too far in time to be a Mandarism, although it may have something to do with the north-to-south migrations that created much of what we know as the Hakka language. The pattern of variation as a whole is not restricted to Taiwan.

The têng reading seems more "native" to me, but the thêng reading is way more common in my experience. Actually, I think I'll post this as a question on Facebook.

愉 jû 角美-variant?
OK (this is the Kakbe variant exactly)

瑜 jû 角美-variant?
OK

矩 kú 角美-variant?
OK

琛 thim
OK

瑗 oān
OK

穫 hò͘
he̍k, I believe; will have to put this to Facebook.

鎰 ek
i̍t

奎 ke / kui
A leaned toward ke; a knowledgeable person on Facebook also leans toward ke.

良 Amhoanna: liông / liâng (Elmer: I tend to Liâng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling
量 Amhanna: liōng / liāng (Elmer: I tend to liāng, as Liang was the Dutch East-Indian spelling

liâng and liāng, respectively; Kakbe patterns with the rest of Ciangciu on this.

Apparently most of the early Hokkien settlers in the Dutch East Indies were from Ciangciu. This explains the Dutch East Indies spellings. This also explains why it's so many families in Bali and East Java with the surname Uy (Ûiⁿ).

冠 Amhoanna: koan (maybe koàn)
OK... In a modern name, I'd go with koàn, but this seems to be a new preference. In an old-time name, I'd go with koan.

強 Amhoanna: kiông/kiâng
kiâng

祚 chò͘ / chà. Amhoanna: chō͘ (NOT SURE)
OK (I still feel that way)

倡 Amhoanna: chhiang (maybe chhiàng)
We've covered this.

所 sé
OK

璧 phek / pek
Both. Will have to ask others.

恂 sun / sûn
sun

Elmer -- I don't think U found the latest version of my "work" in the (messed up) .xlsx files. But that's all right, we're finishing it all anyway. In hindsight, a shared document like a Google Docs spreadsheet would've been a better way to collaborate.

elmer
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby elmer » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:17 am

Thank you.

I guess that wraps it up with the exception of 穫 and 璧. I suddenly realized I know this last character from my Dutch East-Indies ancestors. There it was written as Bik, which means it leans towards the POJ spelling of Phek. I will use that one, unless something cmes up from this forum.

Yes, many of the Dutch-East-Indian Chinese families came from Zhangzhou-region. The family Lie married to women from families who all originated from this region as well. The first Lie to arrive in the Dutch East-Indies even married to a woman whose ancestral village was only 4 kilometers away from the ancestral village of the family Lie. I can not imagine this was a coincidence.

And no, none of the characers ar surnames. They were all of men from the family 李

1000 times thanks, Sunday my book will go the printer!
Elmer

Abun
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby Abun » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:17 am

elmer wrote:I guess that wraps it up with the exception of 穫 and 璧. I suddenly realized I know this last character from my Dutch East-Indies ancestors. There it was written as Bik, which means it leans towards the POJ spelling of Phek. I will use that one, unless something cmes up from this forum.

Maybe you just mistyped, but wouldn't the spelling bik indicate pek rather than phek?

elmer
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby elmer » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:03 pm

MayebI am wrong, but I always thought that Ph sounds like a soft P, therefore resembling a B?

Abun
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby Abun » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:39 am

At least in Taiwan, ph- means an aspirated p- (IPA [pʰ]), which corresponds to English p in most occasions. English "to pee" for example would be rendered as "tho phi" in POJ (disregarding the tones which don't exist in English). POJ p- on the other hand means an unaspirated p- (IPA [p]), which is roughly equivalent to French p- in "peur" for example. Therefore, when I see a Hokkien syllable transcribed by an Englishperson as bik, I would be unsure whether this is POJ pek or bek, I would definitely exclude phek, because I'm sure an Englishperson would have heard p- then. And luckily, bek is not an option in the case of 璧, so only pek is left.

elmer
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby elmer » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:58 am

Haha, so one last change to my book. Thanks, you and amhoanne are great :lol:

amhoanna
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby amhoanna » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:01 pm

With aBun on the p-.

穫 is a treacherous one. It would be best to go into the 彙音寶鑑 for this, or actually for the entire project, but it's not searchable, and I've yet to get to know it.

My best guess would be hok8.

On 程, now I think teng5 was more likely than theng5. The two "readings" function as two different etyma, or words, at least in TW and Amoy. Teng5 refers to DISTANCE ALONG A PATH; theng5 refers to A DEGREE.

elmer
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Re: Pronunciation of some characters

Postby elmer » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:46 pm

Thanks! Another two changes it is, then :-)


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