Help with a few words

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Help with a few words

Postby SimL » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:10 pm

FutureSpy wrote:She told me she uses phòng-ka (I think that's it, but I need to hear her pronouncing it to make sure the aspiration is there, as she never writes them), probably the same as phòng-kam 椪柑. I'm not sure if there are different kinds of tangerine, but at least here a "ponkan" (it's also the Japanese word, and what Brazilians use too) and a "tangerine" are actually different.

Hey cool! This "phòng" rings a very vague bell with me (as in, some sort of orange in my childhood)! I'm speaking to my parents tomorrow about Hokkien, so I'll ask them about this word as well.

FutureSpy
Posts: 167
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:23 pm

Re: Help with a few words

Postby FutureSpy » Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:25 am

SimL wrote:Hey cool! This "phòng" rings a very vague bell with me (as in, some sort of orange in my childhood)! I'm speaking to my parents tomorrow about Hokkien, so I'll ask them about this word as well.

Nice, Sim. Just let us know. Looking forward to hear something else about it :mrgreen:

I guess in another thread I said my teacher said she uses toh-ūi more often than tó-lo̍h, but today she said "We seldom use toh-ūi, we prefer tó-lo̍h". I'm not sure to what extend she meant we (if she's encompassing all Tsinoys, or she's referring to Tsinoys in Cebu) and if she's including herself in this "we"... :roll:

SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Help with a few words

Postby SimL » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:12 pm

Hi FutureSpy,

I asked my parents on the weekend. Indeed, "phòng-kam" was a type of mandarin/tangerine. Apparently, they were imported from China, and they were distinctive because there was a lot of air between the skin and the flesh. Hence the presence of "phòng" in the name, which means "inflated" or "full of air".

My parents remember that it had a rougher skin than the regular mandarin.

From the Wikipedia page on "Tangerine", I see "One of the oldest and formerly most popular varieties is the Dancy tangerine, but it is no longer widely grown. The Dancy was known as the zipper-skin tangerine, and also as the kid-glove orange, for its loose, pliable peel."

Sound like this might be what my parents have in mind.

niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Help with a few words

Postby niuc » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:41 am

SimL wrote:Actually, it's NOT so!!! I miscalculated. I will be 70 in less than 15 years.

Sim, I almost believed that you could have eaten the elixir of 長生不老. Your look in youtube video was much too young to be someone in his 60s! :lol:

SimL wrote:This could be a reflection of the fact that Malaysia was, for most of the 20th century, wealthier than Indonesia (perhaps that's still the case - when I went back for a visit to Malaysia, many people spoke of having "Indonesian maids" as domestic help).

Yes, you are right. Also because Bagansiapiapi is much smaller and backward compared to Penang.

Or it could be that old phenomenon of "what I experienced counts for the rest of my world". I mean, I came from a relatively comfortable middle-class family. We weren't distinctly *rich*, but we were certainly very comfortable. A child then extrapolates that to the rest of society and thinks that "most people live like this".

This is true also. Most Bāgânlâng were poor by Jakarta's standard, not to mention Penang.

My greatest concern is environmental pollution. Like the "Sea of Plastic" the size of Spain, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean .

I agree that this one of the greatest concerns.


Ah-bin wrote:Unker Sim án-ne• iân-tâu, khoàⁿ liau° siâng-kà sì-cháp-kúi hòe niā!

Guá māsī ánne• kóng! :mrgreen:


FutureSpy wrote:BTW, how do you guys say orange juice in your variants?

In my variant, 柑汁 "kamcap" is often used to mean orange juice (strictly speaking is 橙汁 “chiâmcap”), “jeruk Pontianak” juice and artificial orange syrup.

Indonesians usually call any type of citrus as “jeruk” including orange. Usually “jeruk” means a kind of citrus with thin green skin. You can google “jeruk Pontianak” and see the images. This kind we say 柑 “kam” together with ponkan (phòng-kam 椪柑), while orange we call “chiâm/tshiâm”.

How do you all say orange colour? We call it 柑黃(色) “kam-ng5(sik)”.

Amhoanna wrote:Taiwanese for ORANGE is liu2-teng. TANGERINE / MANDARIN is kam5-a2.

Amhoanna, is “liúting/teng” used outside Taiwan?


FutureSpy wrote:Anyway, I'll try to order an orange juice next time I go to a Taiwanese restaurant!

FutureSpy, I saw your FB status. How did you order it? 8)

She told me she uses phòng-ka

May be it is “kaⁿ” with nasal lost… quite a possible pronunciation of 柑.

Sim wrote:I asked my parents on the weekend. Indeed, "phòng-kam" was a type of mandarin/tangerine. Apparently, they were imported from China, and they were distinctive because there was a lot of air between the skin and the flesh. Hence the presence of "phòng" in the name, which means "inflated" or "full of air".

Yes, they are often imported for Chinese New Year.

SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Help with a few words

Postby SimL » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:35 am

niuc wrote:Sim, I almost believed that you could have eaten the elixir of 長生不老. Your look in youtube video was much too young to be someone in his 60s! :lol:

Also don't forget that that video is more than 3 years old now. I've aged a bit since then...

niuc wrote:Indonesians usually call any type of citrus as “jeruk” including orange. Usually “jeruk” means a kind of citrus with thin green skin. You can google “jeruk Pontianak” and see the images. This kind we say 柑 “kam” together with ponkan (phòng-kam 椪柑), while orange we call “chiâm/tshiâm”.

I love Google images for confirming vague ideas / clearing up uncertainties I might have. And for conveying knowledge to other people. How easy it was for you to give this advice, and then we could tell what you meant immediately.

Indeed: "One picture is worth a thousand words / 一圖勝萬言. (Is this saying known in Hokkien?)

BTW, I remember these green "oranges" from my childhood, perhaps they were called "siām-kam" because they were imported from Thailand...? I'll check with my parents.

niuc wrote:How do you all say orange colour? We call it 柑黃(色) “kam-ng5(sik)”.

Frustratingly, I don't remember. I'll ask my parents this as well.

FutureSpy wrote:She told me she uses phòng-ka
niuc wrote:May be it is “kaⁿ” with nasal lost… quite a possible pronunciation of 柑.

Makes a lot of sense to me!

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Help with a few words

Postby amhoanna » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:44 pm

Chiâm surprises me. And "橙" doesn't seem like a valid glyph for "chiâm".

I've never heard "chiâm" in TWese, only liúteng. The Tiunn Juhong dictionary confirms this pattern of usage. Not sure if liúteng is used outside of TW. It could be some kind of Mandarism.

ORANGE (COLOR) in TWese is "kâmmásek". "Kâm'n̂g" to me sounds like Vietnamese for THANK YOU. :mrgreen:

SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Help with a few words

Postby SimL » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:22 am

Hmmm... thanks for flagging your doubts about "chiâm/橙".

I didn't pay any attention to this, because I've noticed that Hokkien "-ng" sometimes corresponds to Mandarin "-n" (or is it the other way around - can't think of any examples off the top of my head). Anyway, I got into the habit of not worrying to much, as long as the Mandarin ended in a nasal, and the Hokkien also (or had a nasalized vowel).

Now that you explicitly pointed it out, I realise that I have no idea of "-m" is subject to the same looseness in correspondence.

Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Help with a few words

Postby Ah-bin » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am

The analogous example I can think of where an -m is an -ng elsewhere is "bear": hîm in colloquial, hiông in the thák-chhe•h-im, and xióng in Mandarin.

Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Help with a few words

Postby Ah-bin » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:58 am

Indeed: "One picture is worth a thousand words / 一圖勝萬言. (Is this saying known in Hokkien?)


Interesting, I would say that 百聞不如一見 is the native Chinese equivalent for that English saying. The other one sounds very much like a loan translation.

SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Help with a few words

Postby SimL » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:08 pm

Wow, "bear/hîm/xióng" is a great example. Thanks Ah-bin.


Return to “Hokkien (Minnan) language”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests