Quick POJ question

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
jilang
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:28 am

Quick POJ question

Post by jilang » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:07 am

Hi

This is just something that only just occured to me. For words like "pian3 - change" or "hian1 - open" or "lian2 - wheel" we use "ia" in romanizing them. Why is it romanized like that when "ia" is a different sound in other uses such as "ia7 - also" or "nia7 - only" or "kia5 - take"? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use "ie" as "i"+"e" sounds more like the sound?

Also, when words ending in "n" sound like they end in a glottal stop, why is the 3rd tone used instead of 4th or 8th?

Thanks
~Jilang
duaaagiii
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:17 am

Post by duaaagiii » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:02 am

For words like "pian3 - change" or "hian1 - open" or "lian2 - wheel" we use "ia" in romanizing them. Why is it romanized like that when "ia" is a different sound in other uses such as "ia7 - also" or "nia7 - only" or "kia5 - take"? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use "ie" as "i"+"e" sounds more like the sound?
They say that -ian used to be pronounced as /ian/ a long time ago, but due to phonological assimilation, /ian/ became /ien/. I believe this is also the case for Mandarin and Hakka.

Many Taiwanese speakers pronounce -ian as /en/--- the /i/ got dropped somewhere around first half of the 20th century.

Reference: http://blog.xuite.net/khoguan/blog/9052674
Also, when words ending in "n" sound like they end in a glottal stop, why is the 3rd tone used instead of 4th or 8th?
Sounds ending in -n have a tendency to sound short--- perhaps that's what you're hearing? I don't think -nh is a valid ending. Endings like -ngh, -mh, and -nnh are not supposed to happen, but they can arise in colloquial pronunciations due to phonological changes.
jilang
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:28 am

Post by jilang » Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:03 am

They say that -ian used to be pronounced as /ian/ a long time ago, but due to phonological assimilation, /ian/ became /ien/. I believe this is also the case for Mandarin and Hakka.
That's interesting. Do you have any idea as to how long ago the original 'ian' might have been heard?
Many Taiwanese speakers pronounce -ian as /en/--- the /i/ got dropped somewhere around first half of the 20th century.
Does this result in more identical sounding words?
Sounds ending in -n have a tendency to sound short--- perhaps that's what you're hearing? I don't think -nh is a valid ending. Endings like -ngh, -mh, and -nnh are not supposed to happen, but they can arise in colloquial pronunciations due to phonological changes.
Currently the tone I have most trouble identifying in words is the 3rd tone. Most of the time when I find a word is 3rd tone I would have thought it was a 8th tone due to the abrubt stop in the word (eg: 'kuai3 - blame' sounds alot like 'kuaih8'). And 3rd tone words ending in 'n' sound very much like they have a glottal stop. Could you please describe the sound of the 3rd tone and the difference between it and the 8th?

Thank you very much
ong
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong » Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:51 am

jiliang,both huian and some yongchun 8th tone is a rising type,so there are no way you can get confused .
duaaagiii
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:17 am

Post by duaaagiii » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:17 pm

They say that -ian used to be pronounced as /ian/ a long time ago, but due to phonological assimilation, /ian/ became /ien/. I believe this is also the case for Mandarin and Hakka.
That's interesting. Do you have any idea as to how long ago the original 'ian' might have been heard?
I'd only be guessing.
Many Taiwanese speakers pronounce -ian as /en/--- the /i/ got dropped somewhere around first half of the 20th century.
Does this result in more identical sounding words?
Nope.
jilang
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:28 am

Post by jilang » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:57 am

jiliang,both huian and some yongchun 8th tone is a rising type,so there are no way you can get confused .
Thanks. That should help me identify tones. By rising, do you mean a 5th tone sound except with a glottal stop?
duaaagiii
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Post by duaaagiii » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:24 am

教羅演變个趨勢[tshu-sè] (in mixed 漢字 and TL romanization) by khoguan

A translation of the first sentence from the fourth paragraph:
Perhaps around 1873, the Minnan endings /ian/ and /ien/ could both be heard, but /ien/ already had the upper hand.
ong
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:22 am

梁炯辉 master degree thesis already mentioned this with live example from China.
When did huian people start speaking en?He has no answer.This guy is amature for me
jilang
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Post by jilang » Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:50 am

Thanks duaaagiii!

On a slightly different topic, how do you say these terms in Hokkien?

"suggest" & "suggestion"
"farm"
"farmer"
ong
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:06 pm

Jilang,
Just go to the bank and send some money to buy that english amoy dict .Do not tell me you don't have 1000 taiwan dollars.What is the problem?
duaaagiii
Posts: 182
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:17 am

Post by duaaagiii » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:48 pm

(The usual disclaimer: this is from a Taiwanese point of view)

"suggest": the following both work as verbs and as nouns:
建議 kian3-gi7
提議 the5-gi7

"farm":
農場 long5-tiunn5, a farm
農村 long5-tshun1, countryside; a rural village; the "farm" in "to live on a farm"

"farmer", less formal terms ("field workers"): (edited, thanks to ong for the reminder; I originally had 做 and tso3 instead)
作田人 tsoh4-tshan5-lang5
作穡人 tsoh4-sit4-lang5

"farmer", more formal terms:
農夫 long5-hu1, male farmer
農婦 long5-hu7, female farmer
農民 long5-bin5, farmer; peasant

SimL's post at the bottom of the following page contains Maryknoll's contact information for ordering their English-Amoy Dictionary:
viewtopic.php?t=3353&sid=8574e871894731 ... 8f55fac981
Last edited by duaaagiii on Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
ong
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Post by ong » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:55 am

作 is entering tone ,that is something minnan and fuzhou proud of.
duaaagiii
Posts: 182
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Post by duaaagiii » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:03 am

Thanks ong; I've edited the post. I was thinking about whether it should be or , and I went with , but now that I think about it, there's the term 農作, which seems like a strong case for .
jilang
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:28 am

Post by jilang » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:48 am

Thank you duaaagiii for help with those words. In general, can Hokkien verbs also be used as nouns such as with 'suggest'?

I have a few questions about Hokkien dictionary.

1) What is the most comprehensive dictionary available?
2) Does it include Hokkien-English and English Hokkien?
3) Is it in POJ or TL?
4) Does it include Chinese characters and if so is it traditional or simplified?
5) What varients of Hokkien does it cover?
6) How are specific words found?
7) Can words be found by their Chinese character?
8) How detailed are the entries for each word? (does it include whether it's a noun, verb, etc and example of usage in sentances and phrases using the word?)
9) How are entries for words laid out?
ong
Posts: 535
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:05 pm

Any dict will do for you.Even that singapore minnan dict will be a big help.No most comprehensive dict now or in the future.
A small article on 惠安 teach me that iao and 饿 are not the same.
永春方言志 teach me some usefull words not in the newest dict.
A privately pubilshed book from China gives me better benzi that some big dict.
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