目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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niuc
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目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by niuc » Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:42 pm

It's so "basic" and many have known that bàk-saí (tear) shouldn't be written as 目屎 but 目滓. Nevertheless I just knew it and am so happy to share it here! :mrgreen:

When I learnt this TLJ/hanji/hanzi 滓 in Mandarin (zǐ), I had guessed that it might be the character for taí, (which is correct), but never have guessed that it is indeed saí for bàk-saí! While unfortunately 當代泉州音字彙 (http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/ ... p?id=28371) uses unusual romanization that hinders new learners, it is indeed a great dictionary. I just learnt there that 滓 is:
滓 zy3 〖渣滓〗 ⦋同音字⦌ 仔吇呰啙子杍梓泚渚煮矷籽紫耔胏芓茈虸訾訿釨陼
zai3 【目滓】 ⦋同音字⦌ 宰崽縡載
dai3 【油滓|臭奶滓】 ⦋同音字⦌ 歹
To transliterate them into "our" romanization:
zy3 〖渣滓〗= cí• (Cuanciu, incl. Bâ-gán), cí (Ciangciu), cú (Penang?)
渣滓 = ca-cí•
zai3 【目滓】= caí -> saí
目滓 = bàk-caí (Cuanciu city?) -> so far I never heard this.
-> bàk-saí in Bâ-gán & TW & Sgp (&Penang, right?).
dai3 【油滓|臭奶滓】= taí
油滓 = iû-taí
臭奶滓 = chaù-lin-taí -> not sure if this is the same to chaù-lin-tai (臭奶呆) in my variant.
Ah-bin
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by Ah-bin » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:29 pm

> bàk-saí in Bâ-gán & TW & Sgp (&Penang, right?).
Not in Penang as far as I know. but I am only quoting from my own limited experience.

Maybe Penangites didn't like the connotation of 屎. They use bák-iû 目油 instead.

They do use bák-chiu-sái 目睭屎 for sleep-dust, sleep from the eyes, which makes more sense as 屎.

Again....not a native speaker, but i have it from two sources (Bhante Dhammavudho and Tan Choon Hoe)
SimL
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by SimL » Fri Sep 02, 2011 7:48 pm

Indeed, what Ah-bin describes is Penang Hokkien usage, except that I think "bak-sai-ko" is the more common term for "sleep". But "tears" must definitely be "bak-iu". The "bak-iu/bak-sai"-topic is one of the recurring ones :mrgreen:, like "kuiN-mng/kham-mui"-topic. It's been covered before, but I can't find (any one of) the original thread(s). I tried both the Forum search and Google, but it just won't show up :oops:.

If I remember correctly, niuc explained there that in his variant "bak-iu" is tears caused by smoke (or acid or something else physical), whereas "bak-sai" is tears caused by crying (i.e. emotional). Is that right?
SimL
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by SimL » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:26 am

Found it!

http://chinalanguage.com/forums/viewtop ... f=6&t=1499

I remembered incorrectly. It was Casey who gave his distinction between "bak-sai" and "bak-iu". But I did remember the distinction correctly, so I guess I *do* learn something from people's comments ... :P. This was way back in May 2004. Amazing to think that we've been talking about Hokkien for so long!
niuc
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by niuc » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:15 am

Thanks, Ah-bin & Sim! :mrgreen:

I used to write bàk-saí as 目屎, although I did think that it's illogical. 目水 or 目汁 (as in Teochew) is more logical, even more than 目滓. Apparently Douglas' lists bàk-caí (bàk-tsaí) as Ciangciu variant. 當代泉州音字彙 also lists it as bàk-caí, so Cuanciu (city?) variant also, also discussed in http://www.ispeakmin.com/bbs/archiver/?tid-2264.html , including “目滓” (mĕ̤k-cāi) for Foochow, so apparently bàk-saí indeed is 目滓. It's a bit unusual, IMHO, that both Cuanciu & Ciangciu have it as caí while Emng/Amoy, Tang'uaⁿ, Sgp and TW have it as saí!

Btw 渣滓 -> ca-cí• is literary (listed in the Cuanciu online dictionary), colloquial is ce-taí (listed in Douglas', this I ever heard).

Sim, yes, my usage is the same as Casey's. And many thanks for the link! Great to refresh the terms we discussed 7 years ago! I even forgot how to say "Adam's apple" recently, and am so glad to find what I wrote then! :lol:
SimL
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by SimL » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:31 am

Hi niuc,

Thank YOU for finding a good character for the "sai" of "bak-sai" :mrgreen:.

While trying to use google to find the older thread, I came across this article: https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/b ... sequence=2

It doesn't say anything we don't already know really, but I found it to be quite a nice article - quite well written, and capturing / describing some of the issues quite well. (Warning: the page takes quite a long time to load.)

Have a good weekend, everyone!
amhoanna
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by amhoanna » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:18 am

I use the 當代泉州音字彙 a lot, mostly to figure out if an etymon is T6 or T7. Agreed, the romanization and the interface are horrible, but there's much to be learned.
aokh1979
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by aokh1979 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:03 am

Have you guys seen 目眵?
amhoanna
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by amhoanna » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:01 pm

It's so "basic" and many have known that bàk-saí (tear) shouldn't be written as 目屎 but 目滓.
I didn't get the memo on this! :mrgreen: What's wrong with 目屎?

Is it established that ba̍kcái (if that's the Coanciu word) is cognate to ba̍ksái?
niuc
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by niuc » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:49 pm

Hi Amhoanna

Upsssttt, I thought I was the only one left out from the memo! :lol:

IMHO, to write 目屎 for bàk-saí (tear) is sort of illogical. [I am not saying that all Hokkien words are or must be logical.] Personally I also think that even the sound of "-saí" in bàk-saí is inconsistent with phī-saí 鼻屎 i.e. dried nose mucus / bogeys / boogers and hī-saí 耳屎 (usually dry) ear wax. That's why some, including at least one of my Hokkien friends in Singapore (may be influenced by Teochew), understand bàk-saí as gound / "sleep" / eye-boogers (which is bàk-saí-ko 目滓膏 in my variant). In this sense I agree that it can be written as 目屎. But for tear, now I prefer 目滓, as given in the online Cuân-ciu dictionary & IspeakMin forum.

What is the criteria for establishing a cognate? In my ignorance, the discussion at IspeakMin forum seems to be quite enough for me. It seems to me that bàk-saí may be a variant of bàk-caí (although currently I don't know of other cai->sai examples); or bàk-saí started with the meaning of "gound" and shifted to "tear". Anyway, even the term 目滓 is still less logical than 目汁 (Teochew) or 目水 (any variant?).

Btw, in my variant we call "running nose" 流鼻 laû-phī (this is what I think everytime I heard the name 劉備 Laû-pī :mrgreen: ). 流鼻水 laû-phī-cuí is running nose with transparent watery mucus. For "bleeding nose", we never say 流鼻血 laû-phī-huih, but laû-phī-làk. If anyone knows what is làk there and its TLJ, I'd be very glad to know!
amhoanna
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by amhoanna » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:21 pm

the sound of "-saí" in bàk-saí is inconsistent with phī-saí 鼻屎 i.e. dried nose mucus / bogeys / boogers and hī-saí 耳屎 (usually dry) ear wax. That's why some, including at least one of my Hokkien friends in Singapore (may be influenced by Teochew), understand bàk-saí as gound / "sleep" / eye-boogers (which is bàk-saí-ko 目滓膏 in my variant)
It's a different sound to U?

What's the SingaHokkien word for TEARS?
What is the criteria for establishing a cognate? ...
Btw, in my variant we call "running nose" 流鼻 laû-phī (this is what I think everytime I heard the name 劉備 Laû-pī :mrgreen: ). 流鼻水 laû-phī-cuí is running nose with transparent watery mucus. For "bleeding nose", we never say 流鼻血 laû-phī-huih, but laû-phī-làk. If anyone knows what is làk there and its TLJ, I'd be very glad to know!
Good to know. 流鼻 is what I've heard in the TWnese context, but I wouldn't have known the finer distinctions.

How to establish a cognate? There should be a hypothetical story or sound change rule of some kind... And it should be at least probable, but probably more than just probable.

In this case, the first question would be whether there's a lot of words that begin with c- in Coanciu, but s- in Amoy. Or whether there are word families in the language that go between c- and s-. (I may not be using all the right terminology here.)

To use another example, what about Malay "orang" vs Hoklo "lảng"? Cognates, or coincidence? At this pt, not knowing all there is to be known, I'd hv to pass on calling them cognates. I think it's better to err on the side of saying nothing's going on.
niuc
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Re: 目滓 bàk-saí / bàk-caí = tear = air mata

Post by niuc » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:31 am

amhoanna wrote: It's a different sound to U?
No, but I meant as as a native speaker, the sound "-saí" (regardless which TLJ) in bàk-saí still sounds inconsistent if compared to phī-saí & hī-saí.
What's the SingaHokkien word for TEARS?
I think mostly say bàk-saí, although bàk-cap/ciap is common too.
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