FEAR and SURPRISE

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by amhoanna » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:38 pm

A couple of questions.

1) How would U guys say, "I was afraid she would turn out to be evil, so I told Ayu to come live with us."

2) What words do U use to express surprise? How would U say, "They were all very surprised to find that Ayu was evil too."

3) Do U guys use or ever come across a phrase "kiaⁿ-khì" or "kiaⁿ-ì" having a meaning related to fear or suspicion? (Not kiâⁿkhì 行氣.)
aokh1979
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:32 pm
Location: George Town, Malaysia
Contact:

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by aokh1979 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:14 am

1. 我「驚講」、「擔心講」、「煩惱講」
2. 伊儂「著怔驚」
3. Me never......
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by niuc » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:19 pm

Bâ-gán usage is the same as Aokh's. Not sure about how 怔 sounds in「著怔驚」, we say tiòh-chiⁿ(tshiⁿ)-kiaⁿ, or sometimes just 著驚 tiòh-kiaⁿ.

How about a nice surprise e.g. when given a surprise birthday party? Kiaⁿ-hí 驚喜 is listed at 台文-華文線頂辭典, but I have never heard it used. In this case, I would say something like 知影个時陣真歡喜. How about you guys? Thanks.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by amhoanna » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:13 pm

Thanks, guys. Can "tio̍h cheⁿkiaⁿ" be used w/o connotations of fear? I.e. negative, but w/o implying that the person was scared?

What about "The boss surprised him last week by bringing him to Macau with her"? Let's say the guy was neither afraid nor pleased nor displeased -- just surprised. And, let's say the speaker (narrator) wasn't surprised at all. How would U guys say this?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by amhoanna » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:23 pm

I'll take a crack at the sentences I mentioned in my first post. Native speakers, please correct me.

"I was afraid she would turn out to be evil, so I told Ayu to come live with us."
--> (Hit cūn ·ho·ⁿ) Goá kiaⁿ kóng hoānsè i sī pháiⁿlâng, ánne m̄ cia' kiò A'iú lâi ka' goálâng toà còhoé.

"They were all very surprised to find that Ayu was evil too."
--> Soà ·lo̍'lâi (--> ·loai) ilâng cia' cai'iáⁿ goânlâi A'iú mā sī pháiⁿlâng, ilâng lóng tio̍' cheⁿkiaⁿ.
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by niuc » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:14 pm

In my usage, tiòh-chiⁿ-kiaⁿ is of greater severity than tiòh-kiaⁿ. Both are negative, but IMO not necessarily implying that the person was scared. They can mean [shocked], or [surprised] in the sense of shocked after knowing the fact.
amhoanna wrote: What about "The boss surprised him last week by bringing him to Macau with her"? Let's say the guy was neither afraid nor pleased nor displeased -- just surprised. And, let's say the speaker (narrator) wasn't surprised at all. How would U guys say this?
To translate the original meaning: 頂禮拜仔in頭家予伊想[勿會]到个chuā伊去Má-káu. I usually change a bit and say: 伊想[勿會]到講頂禮拜仔in頭家會chuā伊去Má-káu.
amhoanna wrote: "I was afraid she would turn out to be evil, so I told Ayu to come live with us."
--> (Hit cūn ·ho·ⁿ) Goá kiaⁿ kóng hoānsè i sī pháiⁿlâng, ánne m̄ cia' kiò A'iú lâi ka' goálâng toà còhoé.

"They were all very surprised to find that Ayu was evil too."
--> Soà ·lo̍'lâi (--> ·loai) ilâng cia' cai'iáⁿ goânlâi A'iú mā sī pháiⁿlâng, ilâng lóng tio̍' cheⁿkiaⁿ.
Sound perfect for me! :mrgreen:
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by amhoanna » Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:55 pm

Kámsiạ Niuc. Interesting that Baganese for MACAU is Mákáu.
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by niuc » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:07 am

amhoanna wrote:Interesting that Baganese for MACAU is Mákáu.
I wonder if the term Má-káu is Hokkien or because in Bahasa Indonesia it's Makau. I heard Ò-mn̂g used by some Baganese esp. older and Chinese educated, but from what I remember, mostly Má-káu (because since 1966 all were Indonesian educated?) when the term ever used at all (very rare compared to Hiong-káng). I even remember that there was a term "Má-káu-pô" referring to women who worked at bar, night clubs or something worse. Yet my mom has never heard the term. May be it was a slang used by my friends.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by amhoanna » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:17 am

Mákáupô? Great word.

Reminds me of TWnese Khehhiaⁿ and Hōlómá, meaning MALE and FEMALE EXTRAMARITAL LOVERS, respectively. I wouldn't be surprised if the folk etymology of Khehhiaⁿ as 客兄 doesn't actually jive with history.

It seems possible that the name Mákáu itself came out of some Hokloid language. Maybe even a Hoklicized Tai-Kadai language that died out in the 19th century? :mrgreen: What do the old folks say in Penang: Mákáu or Òmûi?
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by niuc » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:48 am

What is má in Hōlómá, 馬? In Bâ-gán-uē we also say 客兄, but I don't remember any term for the female. Another term is 猴哥, also known in TW (http://210.240.194.97/iug/ungian/SoannT ... l/chha.asp). Interestingly, the verb is different for each term i.e. 討客兄 and 綴猴哥 or simply 綴猴. To "catch" them is called liàh猴.

According to wikipedia, the name Macau comes from 媽閣廟. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Macau . Sounds very probable, right?
AndrewAndrew
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by AndrewAndrew » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:13 am

amhoanna wrote:It seems possible that the name Mákáu itself came out of some Hokloid language. Maybe even a Hoklicized Tai-Kadai language that died out in the 19th century? :mrgreen: What do the old folks say in Penang: Mákáu or Òmûi?
Makau. There is a Makau-ke in Penang (Penang St, between Bishop & Market Sts).
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by SimL » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:10 am

Surprisingly (as we were both born and bred in Penang), my usage differs very much from aokh's for "2. They were all very surprised... / 伊儂「著怔驚」".

I don't know how to say "surprised" at all, but "tioh-chEN-kiaN" means, for me, "to get a fright". Like the English equivalent, there are very specific limitations. One is that the thing has to be sudden, and another is that - after the initial shock - it turns out that the thing isn't so serious after all.

So, if one sees a possibly fierce dog approaching from a long distance, which turns out to be very friendly, then one doesn't "to get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN" (because there is no suddenness, even if the fear turns out to be ungrounded). Conversely, if one suddenly sees a truck approaching a pedestrian at high speed, and it then knocks him over and kills him, then one doesn't "to get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN" either (because it is sudden, and turns out to be very serious after all).

So, for me, "to get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN" are (typically) used for situations where, for example, one suddenly hears a clock fall off the wall, or someone jumps out at one from behind a door and says "boo!".

Having said this, I think the second condition (of it turning out to be less serious) is commonly present but not strictly necessary. If one hears a loud crash, and it turns out that a cupboard has fallen over, and it turns out that the cupboard was full of very expensive porcelain, then one can still "get a fright" / "tioh-chEN-kiaN", even though the consequences are quite serious. But in that case, the "seriousness" of the fact is not connected with the initial fear.

I'm not really familiar with "tioh-kiaN". Does anyone say "phah4-kiaN1" (= literally "strike-scared")? As in: "i chia tioh long liau, i sua(h) phah-kiaN khi, tong-kim m-kaN sai chia liau" = ("after he had that car accident, he became scared / got frightened, and nowadays doesn't dare drive any more").

I'm not sure of this usage, but it seems vaguely familiar...
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by amhoanna » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:17 am

Welcome back, Sim. Thanks for the detail. It seems to me, subjectively, that Hoklo doesn't lend itself to expressing surprise well, nor talking about it.

If I had to characterize or "stereotype" Hoklo people in Taiwan and the Phils, esp. guys, it's that they never admit surprise, and always claim or act like they "saw it coming". For some reason, MY/SG Hokkiens seem to be different -- then again, stereotypical Bengs seem to be like that too.
What is má in Hōlómá, 馬?
Right, má as in GRANDMOTHER doesn't seem to fit, meaningwise. My guess is it comes from a Hakka word "ma" meaning maybe MOTHER and/or WENCH. Why this connection? Well, guys can address girls as "ma" in New York English...
According to wikipedia, the name Macau comes from 媽閣廟. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Macau . Sounds very probable, right?
Makes sense, esp. considering the -au in Portuguese is like the short -au in Malay, Cantonese and VNmese rather than Hoklo -au.
Makau. There is a Makau-ke in Penang (Penang St, between Bishop & Market Sts).
What are the tone contours here, Andrew?
SimL
Posts: 1407
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by SimL » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:07 am

Hi amhoanna,

Thanks - it's nice to be back :P.

>> What are the tone contours here, Andrew?

I don't know the street in question, but when my family use it, it's "mākáu".

I never used the word myself, as a child, but there's a long story relating to how I know the tones of this.

In my family history research, I asked one of my relatives "how much of a 'Hokkien identity' he had as a child". He said that he had a very strong Hokkien identity, even as a child. I was quite surprised by this, as a (strong) sense of identity usually only arises as a result of living in an environment where that identity contrasts with other identities. So - for example - I expect that "the Chinese" in Malaysia would have a strong sense of being Chinese, because they are in regular contact with Indians and Malays. I feel that they would have a stronger sense of being Chinese than (say) a Chinese person living in rural China, in a town of 10,000, where everyone else was Chinese, and even spoke the same variant of Chinese as he/she does. As I thought that the Chinese in Penang would have been pretty homogeneously speakers of Penang Hokkien, I was surprised that he expressed having felt this strong sense of a Hokkien (as opposed to a Chinese) identity.

So, I queried him on it. He explained that there was a minority of Cantonese speakers in Penang in his youth. The majority Hokkien speakers (or, at any rate, the people of his own background) treated them with contempt (part of it being that they didn't speak Hokkien). The derogatory term they used for them was "makau tu" (= "pig"). He explained that it was interesting that this term of abuse was used for *all* Cantonese speakers. People were aware that not all of them came from Macau, but this term was used to cover them all, irrespective. The use of that term - he continued to explain - brought into focus the fact that he himself was a *Hokkien* speaker, hence producing a stronger consciousness of a Hokkien identity.

He (retrospectively) felt very negative and ashamed about this "racism" on the part of his own community, and refused to repeat the account on tape. And - unfortunately - all my arguments about the importance of "accurately recording historical circumstances", even negative ones (with it perhaps even having the positive effect of "learning from history"), were to no avail. He steadfastly continued to refuse. So, there is no recorded evidence of this (to me) interesting historical socio-linguistic fact, other than that I say that I heard my relative say it.

That's how I know the tone of "makau" in Penang Hokkien!
AndrewAndrew
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am

Re: FEAR and SURPRISE

Post by AndrewAndrew » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:49 am

Yes, in the street name it also probably means Cantonese rather than specifically Macau.
Locked