Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the field

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.

Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby Ah-bin » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:48 pm

What I mean is that the word probably didn't move from (most likely) Portuguese into Hoklo directly, but rather via Malay or Tagalog.


Sorry about the misunderstanding! Two of most argued over words in Hokkien are sat-bun and lui, and some people have said some crazy things about them in the past (no-one who posts now, though, I think), so I thought I'd go and use the OED for sat-bun.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:42 pm

amhoanna wrote:2. In an "unrelated development", just a couple days ago something in the air must've jarred my mind and I thought to myself, Hey, what if there was a kind of Hokkien with bits of Spanish in it? Then my conscious mind said maybe such a dialect exists or once existed on the islands between Taiwan and Sulawesi. Then I read your post and go, Wow!

:lol:

amhoanna wrote:3. By Luzon Hoklo, I just meant the Hokkien spoken on Luzon. By Binondo Hoklo, I mean the Hokkien spoken in Binondo. I really don't know if Hoklo is spoken differently in different spots around Luzon. I do know the Hokkien spoken in Cebu ain't quite the same as the Binondo kind.

Agree, they borrow Visayan words into their vocabulary. This makes Lan-nang-oe more regional than it is.

amhoanna wrote:4b. Why the insistence that Hoklo satbûn comes from a European language, not Tagalog? Very telling, in my mind. Just a Tn̂glâng conceit that Tn̂glâng borrow nothing from hoanná. The common wisdom among linguists is that the word comes from Malay. I think it may well have been either Malay or Tagalog. I doubt most linguists ever imagined it could've come from Tagalog, but they underestimate or aren't aware of how thick ties were w/i the Banlam - Luzon - Formosa triangle.

I don't know either. I usually say "sa-bon" when I speak hokkien.

amhoanna wrote:4c. Why the assumption that Pinoy Hoklo "tse-ke", meaning CHECK (method of payment), comes from Taiwanese? I mean, there's no such word in TW Hoklo. Vs the Spanish word "cheque" (pronounced like POJ cekkè) which I think has been loaned into every Pinoy trade language.

My feeling is that it's a Tagalog loan word from Spanish. Some local Chinese will say k'ui-p'io 開(支)票 as oppose to "k'ui tse-ke".

amhoanna wrote:5a.
Bantay* - Really (e.g. Ke kh'a bantay kui 價錢真貴)

This must be Tagalog. No non-Pinoy dialect that I know of uses this word. It's so interesting that this word is so integrated into Pinoy Hokkien that U weren't even sure if it came from Tagalog or "Old Hokkien".

Bantay actually means "watch" in Tagalog. My gut feel is that this is loan or derived from Tagalog. However, someone told me that it's Hokkien. I had thought about this and guessed if it could be "萬態" to mean something strong (superlative)? To be honest, I never heard of this word except in metro manila!

amhoanna wrote:5b. BTW is "ke kh'a" the word for PRICE? What tone is the "kh'a"? Reminds me of the Siamese word for PRICE.

kh'a = 腳 as in 腳骨,腳退 sounding

amhoanna wrote:5c.
Di wu pala beh?

What's the vowel in "beh"? What does the word rhyme with?

beh = 未 as in 你睏未,未吃 sounding

amhoanna wrote:5d.
jiong zuai sauli t'o-i

What's this "t'o"? What does it rhyme with? What's the tone on it? Does it mean TO GIVE when it stands alone w/o other verbs?

t'o = 吐 as 吐血 sounding - very likely 討 as in 討錢,討我 (???)

amhoanna wrote:"Si di a'be paga din, lan ceci laikhi" (IF YOU ALSO HAVEN'T PAID YET, LET'S GO OVER NOW)

This definitely sounds like a ZC person who went to metro manila and influenced by Tagalog hence the use of "Si"... followed by "din"! You sound like a Tsinoy!!! :lol:

amhoanna wrote:7. Chinese-literate Pinoys are, I think, a stealthy group... Who buys these?" And she said matter-of-factly, "The Chinese people here."

I believe Tsinoys born prior to 60's and have been sent to local Chinese schools should have better reading and writing skills than later generations.
Last edited by siamiwako on Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:57 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby siamiwako » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:47 pm

Mark Yong wrote:... the short if it is that it sounds like the Philippines is a near-perfect fossilisation of late 19th century 泉州 Coan Ciu dialect, with even the writing system having suffered minimal intrusion from the onslaught of Modern Standard Chinese (sounds like they insulated themselves even better than Malaysia!).

In recent years, local Chinese schools are encouraging everyone to speak Mandarin, however the adoption, I believe, will have a slower rate compared to Malaysia and Singapore.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:58 am

BTW has everybody who asked to hear the Ong Le files gotten a link in their email?

Agree, they borrow Visayan words into their vocabulary. This makes Lan-nang-oe more regional than it is.

Also I recall Sugbo Hoklo having a Lionghai or Mainline Taiwanese kind of sound.

Bantay actually means "watch" in Tagalog. My gut feel is that this is loan or derived from Tagalog. However, someone told me that it's Hokkien. I had thought about this and guessed if it could be "萬態" to mean something strong (superlative)? To be honest, I never heard of this word except in metro manila!

Very interesting situation. Is the /t/ aspirated as in Hoklo thài 態?Or unaspirated like in 代?

kh'a = 腳 as in 腳骨,腳退 sounding

So kèkha for PRICE. Interesting.

t'o = 吐 as 吐血 sounding - very likely 討 as in 討錢,討我 (???)

Another interesting word. The UCLA Hoklo look-up also has a word tō· meaning TO GIVE, under the kanji 度.

The UCLA Hoklo look-up has been a great resource during this Pinoy Hokkien adventure. :P

"Si di a'be paga din, lan ceci laikhi" (IF YOU ALSO HAVEN'T PAID YET, LET'S GO OVER NOW)
This definitely sounds like a ZC person who went to metro manila and influenced by Tagalog hence the use of "Si"... followed by "din"! You sound like a Tsinoy!!! :lol:

:lol: It feels right to talk this way!

BTW do Zamboanga Tsinoys ever hang out in random places in Zamboanga? Or are they usually in private settings? I guess this question goes for all of Phils. I wouldn't mind meeting some people that talk like this!
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby Mark Yong » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:34 am

amhoanna wrote:
BTW has everybody who asked to hear the Ong Le files gotten a link in their email?

I did, thanks. Taking my time to slowly soak it in. :)
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:47 pm

hi guy! I was wondering, does anyone comes from the philippines? I am a genuine chinoy/tsinoy. and would like to try to answer some of your questions and observations. Here, in the Philippines we use hokkien or I call it fookien. From my observation, we use chinese fookien, most of the early chineses came from Amoy, China as my mother would always tells me. But through the years, tagalog language have mixed with our language just as the early tagalog have mixed with the spanish and american language. Thereby creating a new tagalog language, now as the chinese community is expanding but mixing with the Filipinos, our chinese fookien is now dwindling to extinction. Kids now doesn't know how to speak even the basic fookien. But in the chinese schools here, the primary chinses teaching language is mandarin. So, you can talk to chinese kids in mandarin but not in fookien. But being a person that believes that Chinese Fookien is the base foundation of chinese language in the Philippines, I try to teach my child to speak fookien. And as a matter of fact I even posted tutorials in youtube so my child would learn fookien anytime from the computer. Here, I can say that the chinese fookien words you are hearing from the market and streets has evolved through the passing of many generations. I call it Accepted Chinese Fookien, what is this? in the Philippines, the combination of english and tagalog is TAGLISH, now the combination of Fookien and Taglish , I call it Chinese Taglish, the Accepted Chinese Fookien. Here almost all chinese knows a little english, a little tagalog so adding the fookien would makes conversation and exchanging of ideas very very easy. Imagine talking to a grade 4 student atoms, molecules, science terms in fookien would only make the child hate the language. And we pronounce the fookien in Tagalized way, which means how we spell it we pronounce it. What if we make it " Dan eh sing-kHu si made up of ya tsu-we eh molecules." or "Our body is made up of many molecules."
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:58 pm

BTW in Zamboanga, they use fookien-chavacano language, as they adapt to their environment just like here in Manila. Also, better learn chinese-taglish because you can use it in the whole country where there are traditional chinese living. Traditional Chinese are chinese people that came from china long long ago where their children, grandchildren and great great grandchildren were born here. The latest chinese are usually chinese peolple that just live here in the Philippines about less than 5 years. They usually came from china, hongkong and taiwan. Also, chinese-taglish can also be used to other parts of the world where chinoys have migrated to, like Canada, U.S.,Taiwan, China, Australia.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:05 pm

Actually in Zamboanga, the language Chavacano is the combination of spanish and visaya.

"Si di a'be paga din, lan ceci laikhi" (IF YOU ALSO HAVEN'T PAID YET, LET'S GO OVER NOW)

in our translation,

" si din a-be pala din, dan tse-tsi lay-kHi.

Note:
din - tagalog for also

Also, traditional chinese only knows how to read KOK IM not Pinyin.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:34 pm

Hi haroldmanila,

Great to see you here! We indeed used to have a "traditional Chinese" from the Philippines here many years ago, and nowadays, siamiwako, who is originally from the Philippines, is a regular contributor. The more variation we get the better! Sounds very much like the variety of Hokkien you speak is a close analogue of Penang Baba Hokkien, where there are many borrowed Malay words.

haroldmanila wrote:And as a matter of fact I even posted tutorials in youtube so my child would learn fookien anytime from the computer.

It would be wonderful if you would post the link(s) here, so that we can all (watch and) hear "Chinese Taglish".
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:20 pm

Thank you Mr. SimL for the welcome. Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtf3OHBtSUc

it is under the account of "tomdavid3000"

But sad to inform you that I made this video just for the kids here in the Philippines, which I think have wandered off from their ancestral roots. And have been addicted to Facebook. But needless to say I am trying to give time to this cause at least just for my child.

The video is mostly in Tagalog because most of the kids here have mingled with their Filipino friends so there are no way they will learn the Fookien unless they are force to or inspired by someone. I hope you will not have a hard time understanding my video.

Thanks again.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:22 pm

BTW the video is "how to speak fookien in the Philippines". Thanks.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby amhoanna » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:12 pm

Good to hear from U, Mr Harold from Manila. Hoan'gẻng lí kha' ciạp lải cẹ. (歓迎汝卡習來坐)

I would like to know everything about Hokkien just as it is spoken in your country.

Actually I'd also like to learn Tagalog and Ilonggo, all in due time, all in due time.

Look forward to learning more Pinoy Hokkien from U.

BTW why do U call it Fookien? I notice a lot of Pinoys do this, as if they thought it was somehow more proper than calling it Hokkien.

Also, what do U mean by "kok im"?

I was in the Phils for a short spell just a while back. I bought a language learning material that includes a recording of Pinoy Hokkien with the Tagalog equivalents. If U don't mind, I'd like to share the recording with U and hear what U have to say regarding the recording, as in what impressions does it give U in the context of Manila, Luzon, Pinoy, and Tsinoy society, etc.
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:38 pm

Hi haroldmanila,

Thanks for posting the link. You've spent a lot of time and effort in making the videos: congratulations! It's good to know that there are people in the Philippines who care enough to want to prevent the loss of Hokkien / promote its spread.

I see that you explain Hokkien tones in terms of Mandarin ones. This is exactly how I started out too. Because in after-school classes many of us were exposed to "Beginners Mandarin" (even us English-educated ones, who never had a hope in hell of mastering it as kids), I knew of the 4 Mandarin tones (in my youth, nobody ever mentioned neutral tones!). And so I just thought that the Hokkien ones were equivalent to them. It was only years later (after I had turned 40), that I realised that Hokkien and Mandarin tone numbers were different (and even in Hokkien, there are two common but different systems of numbering, when transcribing Hokkien in roman letters).

[BTW Ah-bin gave me a very good tip for my leaning of Mandarin. I have endless trouble remembering which of the 4 tones goes with which syllable in each word, and Ah-bin pointed out to me that very often Hokkien syllables in tone1 (H1) will have tone1 in Mandarin too (M1), if it's a cognate sinitic word. I've found from experience that this is also true for H5 and M2. Both pairs probably because they are historically related: ping-yin / piaN-ciuN and ping-yang / piaN-e, right?]

Interesting to see that "tubo" is the Philippine Hokkien term for "sugar cane". I guess this comes from Tagalog, as the Malay word for it is "tebu" (http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tebu). What about "sow" (= "female pig")? In most other variants, this would be (using the POJ tone numbers) "tu1-bo2" or "ti1-bo2" or "ty1-bo2" (or is it "-bu2" for the non-Penang variants?).

amhoanna: you're inspired to learn Tagalog. Knowing you, you'll do it in the next 5 years too! You're amazing :P!
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby haroldmanila » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:50 pm

Thank very much guys!
Actually I noticed the 5th in the pronunciation of mandarin but I can't remember if we were taught 4 or 5 tones, so I indicated in my video that I am not in any way an instructor so I may possibly be wrong or lacking in my info, but I will try my best and as accurate as possible. About the "KOK IM" i think it is called "TZU IM", i am having a hard time remebering the pinyin and this tzu im. But I just search the internet and i think you call it "bopomofo". I grew up knowing this is the chinese alphabet, so when my child ask me words in pinyin i can't answer right away. I used the "Fookien" word because I also grew up with that word instead of "Hokkien". As for the "tubo" or sugarcane, its "tu1-bo4". "tu2-bo1" for profit and "tu2-bo2" for pipe.
Excuse me for not understanding some of your words like POJ, hoklo and other partucular terms related to the study and history of chinese words. I am just a practical person that is inclined to everyday situatuation.
Also, pardon me, as much as I can, I try not to use words like "hoanna" and "lan-nang-oe".
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Re: Hoklo on Luzon (Philippines Hokkien), reports from the f

Postby SimL » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:49 pm

Hi haroldmanila,

Yes, there's a lot of new terminology to learn when one first gets into the "Hokkien" area. Don't feel intimidated! [I myself only learnt the POJ tone marks properly about 4 years ago, and some of our very knowledgable Forum members are still unsure of the numbers :mrgreen:.]

POJ stands for Pe-Oe-Ji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POJ), the system first devised by Christian Missionaries in the 19th century. It's a very nice system, as it can transcribe a number of the more common variants of Hokkien. "Hoklo" is another term for "Hokkien", used mostly in Taiwan, as far as I know.

If "Fookien" is the word you're used to, and if that's how the language is referred to in the Philippines, then you should continue using it, even if it's slightly unusual that a Hokkien speaker would refer to the language using the pronunciation of another language. So, hey, if that's what it's called in Filipino English and Tagalog, then that's what it's called in Filipino English and Tagalog! [Sim the descriptive linguist strikes again :P.]

BTW: Why do you "try not to use words like "hoanna" and "lan-nang-oe"?
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