Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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amhoanna
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Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by amhoanna » Tue May 31, 2011 3:13 am

A question for the Penang crew. If I want to work backwards from the one /e/ in TW/Amoy to the two in Ciangciu/Penang, is this rule right, true, and complete:

* If Canto cognate has /a/, then open /e/ in Ciangciu/Penang.
* If Canto cognate has /i/, /ai/, or /aai/, then tense /e/ in Ciangciu/Penang.
SimL
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by SimL » Tue May 31, 2011 3:25 am

Hi amhoanna,

I don't know much Cantonese (except lap-chiong :mrgreen:), so I'm going to have to leave it to the others to answer this...
Yeleixingfeng
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by Yeleixingfeng » Tue May 31, 2011 3:34 am

使 - sai in Canto and sai in Hokkien.
米 - mai in Canto and bi in Hokkien

Just a few exceptions I can think of. Maybe I am wrong? Haha.
amhoanna
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by amhoanna » Tue May 31, 2011 2:30 pm

To be clear, this is the other part of the condition:
* If "mainstream" TWese Hoklo has /e/...
(In Amoy these could be either /e/ or /oe/ -- but it seems that in the -e/-oe case, Penang always has a tense /e/.)

I've noticed from this forum that Penang also has an open-tense /e/ distinction in "glottal-stopped" syllables. So, let's see. We have the distinction in:

1) syllables with just the -e
2) syllables with -eh
3) not syllables with -eⁿ
4) not syllables with -ek or -eng
5) not syllables with -oe

All true?
Ah-bin
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by Ah-bin » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:20 am

Quite right. I think Penang has

1) -e and –e∙ (E)
2) -eh and –e∙h (Eh) (beh - want to)
3) only –e∙ⁿ (EN)
4) only -ek and -eng (some would spell it -ik and -ing)
5) only -oe (some would spell it -ue)

and there is –e∙ⁿh too! For that I only know "he∙ⁿh" - to pause or take a rest.
amhoanna
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by amhoanna » Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:24 pm

For that I only know "he∙ⁿh" - to pause or take a rest.
Is this related to TW 歇 hioh, e.g. hiohkhùn? In Penang, I remember learning the word hehkang 歇工 from some people in a shop -- I didn't notice it being nasal. Also, since Cantonese has /hit/, I would've expected the /e/ to be tense.
SimL
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by SimL » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:21 pm

Good question! I've always wondered whether Penang Hokkien "hEhN" (what a LOVELY syllable!) is related to "hioh" in Amoy "hioh-khun".

It means "pause", "have a break", or even "stop": "i kui tiam be(h)-hEhN?" (= "what time does he want to stop?" (e.g. work)). I suppose there's always some implication of resuming, even if it's only the next day.

The only thing preventing me with strongly associating the two is that *"hEhN-khun" doesn't exist.
Mark Yong
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by Mark Yong » Thu Jun 02, 2011 12:36 pm

The context in which I used it most in Penang was 歇喘 hÊⁿh-chŭan, i.e. ‘to rest’ (more specifically ‘to catch one's breath’). I used to think the character for (note that back then, I did not pay attention to the nasalisation) was simply , as in ‘to lower one's panting’.
SimL
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by SimL » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:06 pm

Hi everyone,

Wow, internet cafe in London, with Chinese characters :mrgreen:.

Yes indeed, hEhN (or is it hENh) is most commonly used in hEhN-chuan. Obviously, I haven't got my Douglas here while travelling, but I'll check if the "chuan2" is the same one as "chuan2-khui3" (= to breath). I imagine it is.
amhoanna
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by amhoanna » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:43 pm

So the word hiohkhùn 歇睏 -- or some equivalent -- doesn't exist in PgHK?

Years ago I mentioned to Lîm Kiànhui the Hokkien blogger from Hokkiàn that in Penang they said hèkang for TO TAKE TIME OFF FROM WORK, and he said, Oh, yeah, actually that's hehkang 歇工, heh is Ciangciu for 歇. But I think he typed it w/o the nasal. And actually I think he's from Ciangciu himself -- maybe Liônghái.
SimL
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by SimL » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:06 am

amhoanna wrote:So the word hiohkhùn 歇睏 -- or some equivalent -- doesn't exist in PgHK?
No. I know it from my Amoy maternal side. Perhaps the Penang Hokkien equivalent would be "khi to2/khun3 man-nia ku" (= "to go and lie down / sleep for a little while), with the lying down / sleeping implicitly conveying that one takes a rest / has a nap.
amhoanna wrote:Years ago I mentioned to Lîm Kiànhui the Hokkien blogger from Hokkiàn that in Penang they said hèkang for TO TAKE TIME OFF FROM WORK, and he said, Oh, yeah, actually that's hehkang 歇工, heh is Ciangciu for 歇. But I think he typed it w/o the nasal. And actually I think he's from Ciangciu himself -- maybe Liônghái.
Nice that your original example to Lîm Kiànhui involved the same concept as mine here, i.e. resting from work. I guess this must be one of its primary usages / collocations then.
azad_yousafzai
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by azad_yousafzai » Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:33 am

where is it in London with cafe chines characters
i am 26 and here to spend my spare time in useful activities
SimL
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Re: Ciangciu/Penang open vs tense /e/

Post by SimL » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:14 am

Hi there azad,

This one was in Marchmont Street, on the left as you go southwards from North London. A very friendly black man was at the desk.

Do you speak Hokkien?
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