Passing through and passing by

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Ah-bin
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Passing through and passing by

Postby Ah-bin » Sat May 28, 2011 12:16 pm

I was wondering whether Hokkien (of any kind) usually makes a distinction between "passing through" and "passing by" things.

Wá túiⁿ-chhù tióh-beh keng-kòe pé•h-hûn-soaⁿ. 我轉厝著欲經過白雲山.

Does this means "I have to pass a cemetary on my way home" or "I have to pass through a cemetary on my way home"?

Or maybe keng-kòe means "go through" and to say "go past" I need to say kòe affixed to another verb,

like:
走過 cháu-kòe "to run past"
行過 kiâⁿ-kòe "to walk past"

Or is it possible to express "I have to pass a cemetary on my way home" with just kòe?

like so:

Wá túiⁿ-chhù tióh-beh kòe pé•h-hûn-soaⁿ. 我轉厝著欲過白雲山.

aokh1979
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby aokh1979 » Sat May 28, 2011 2:38 pm

All works. I often use 經過 and 過.

Sometimes, I might say:
我轉茨 (tshù) 得 (tiòh) 按白雲山過。

Just a side note, I suppose the "-" between 2 different syllable triggers tone sandhi when we speak, right ?

Do you realise that we never change tone if the character comes before 過 ?

Ah-bin
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby Ah-bin » Sat May 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Thanks very much for that Aokh, and yes, the point about the dash is something I need to clear up in the dictionary. I knew it didn't sandhi with the "experiential" 過, (have done once did etc.) but for some reason I thought the 經過 would be different.

BTW I think that meaning of 得 meaning "have to" doesn't have a very long history even in written Mandarin. The basic meaning was always like 趁 thàn in Hokkien, and the "dei" meaning is just using it as a borrowed character to represent a different word in colloquial speech that had no character.

siamiwako
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby siamiwako » Sat May 28, 2011 3:59 pm

I'm not an expert in this field, but don't you say kia-dip (as in kia-dip-ki) to mean 走入?

amhoanna
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby amhoanna » Sat May 28, 2011 7:00 pm

Cool word, 白雲山! BTW do people in Penang bury their dead on hillsides like in northern TW?

This is what I use:
... ùi XXX koè = TO PASS BY XXX
... kiâⁿ ùi XXX = TO WALK THROUGH XXX
... se̍h ùi XXX = TO GO (LEISURELY) THROUGH XXX
... and so on...

In TW, "keng" in the verb "kengkoè" "obeys sandhi". "Kiâⁿ" in "kiâⁿ koè hia" obeys sandhi. "Kiâⁿ" in "kiâⁿ--koè" takes citation.

siamiwako
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby siamiwako » Sat May 28, 2011 7:12 pm

Interesting to know it's also called as 白雲山.
We usually say sin-sua colloquially and I'm not sure which word for sin but the intonation suggests closer to 新 than 神. Perhaps, people didn't bother lengthening the pronunciation.

However, our min-nan is never fluent. :)

niuc
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby niuc » Sat May 28, 2011 9:00 pm

We say 出山 for funeral although there is no 山 around Bagansiapiapi. Many traditional Chinese cementaries around Jakarta are on hillsides and very expensive, more than 20x price of public cementaries. We just call cementary thióng 塚. Is 白雲山 a general term meaning cementary in Penang-uā or a place name?

我轉厝著欲經過白雲山 -> this sounds natural in my variant.
我轉茨 (tshù) 得 (tiòh) 按白雲山過。-> my variant: 我轉茨 (tshù) 得 (tiòh) 過白雲山 or 我轉茨 (tshù) 得 (tiòh) 對(tuì)雲山過.
[Actually we usually just say tò 倒 instead of 轉厝/茨. We also often pronounce 著 as tòh if followed by verbs e.g. the samples above. Since our sandhi for T8 is T3, in 我倒著欲經過白雲山, citation for 倒 and sandhi 著, I say/hear two to3!]

For me, 經過 and 過 can mean both passing through and passing by. For an area / big place like cementary, they tend to mean passing through. But for a building, they tend to mean passing by. If I walk by the side of (passing by) the cementary but not passing through it, I still can use 經過 and 過, same as passing through; but to be precise, I'd add (白雲山)邊仔. For a building, I'd add 內/內面 for passing through. If I pass by that area but not directly in front of that cementary/building, I'd add 附近 for clarification.

Tone sandhi for the word before 過 in my variant is the same as described by Amhoanna.

Siamiwako, kiâⁿ_dïp 走入 in my variant means walking into, rather than passing through. I can "feel" that your sin-suaⁿ most probably is 新山 (we have 新塚 and 舊塚 in Bagansiapiapi). Btw Sin-suaⁿ 新山 in Singapore and Malaysia means Johor Bahru. :lol:

siamiwako
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby siamiwako » Sat May 28, 2011 9:44 pm

niuc wrote:For me, 經過 and 過 can mean both passing through and passing by. For an area / big place like cementary, they tend to mean passing through. But for a building, they tend to mean passing by. If I walk by the side of (passing by) the cementary but not passing through it, I still can use 經過 and 過, same as passing through; but to be precise, I'd add (白雲山)邊仔. For a building, I'd add 內/內面 for passing through. If I pass by that area but not directly in front of that cementary/building, I'd add 附近 for clarification.


I totally agree with what you said above.

niuc wrote:Siamiwako, kiâⁿ_dïp 走入 in my variant means walking into, rather than passing through. I can "feel" that your sin-suaⁿ most probably is 新山 (we have 新塚 and 舊塚 in Bagansiapiapi). Btw Sin-suaⁿ 新山 in Singapore and Malaysia means Johor Bahru. :lol:


Why is JB called 新山? Does that mean that there's 舊山?
Sorry I'm unfamiliar with Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia region. Enlighten me please ^^

niuc
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby niuc » Sun May 29, 2011 12:10 am

I have never heard of 舊山 here, and not sure why JB is 新山. May be Malaysians here can help to explain.

AndrewAndrew
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby AndrewAndrew » Sun May 29, 2011 1:39 pm

Yes, a lot of the prime hill land in Penang is covered with graveyards (in Penang apart from the coast everything is hill)

I thought 白雲山 specifically referred to Mount Erskine/Vale of Tempe in Penang (there is one of the biggest Chinese cemeteries there)?

amhoanna
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby amhoanna » Sun May 29, 2011 4:54 pm

Thanks for the detailed rundown, Niuc. I'm pretty sure the whole thing applies in TW as well. I would've never noticed all that w/o U laying it out piece by piece.

Lots of hillsides around Tâipak 台北 are covered in bông'ápo͘ (CEMETERIES). They're cluttered and chaotic and kind of scared me when I was a kid. OK, probably still even now. :P For some reason, I never seem to see these kind of "poor folks" cemeteries when I go down-island to middle TW and southern TW. I've also heard that up around the northeast corner of TW, the people (Hoklo) used to put the remains (or just bones?) of their dead in big jars and stick these jars in caves way up in the cliffs. There's lots of cliffs there... Highly recommended for all y'all's next trip to Taiwan: the port city of Kelâng and the shore from east of there on down to the plains of Gîlân, or better yet all the way down to Hoalian. For extra credit, do keep an eye out for Hokkien POJ street signs in the prefecture of Gîlân.

Cool name, Sinsoaⁿ 新山. If I'm not mistaken, Mount Kinabalu in Sabah is Sînsoaⁿ 神山 in Hoklo. I have to say Ciáⁿcúikáng from another thread is the coolest Hoklo place name I've seen in a while. Niuc, I've been forgetting to ask U what U-all call Jakarta in Baganese. Did Jakarta have names referring to coconuts at some point?

Ah-bin
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby Ah-bin » Sun May 29, 2011 5:57 pm

I thought 白雲山 specifically referred to Mount Erskine/Vale of Tempe in Penang (there is one of the biggest Chinese cemeteries there)?


I see! I used to hear them talking about it all the time, but I thought it was just a general term!

I that case bōng 墓 is the most common word now, meaning both a single tomb and the plural.

Thióng-soaⁿ 塚山 I learnt from listening to Bhante Dhammavudho, but it must have have commonly used in Penang at one time too, as it appears in that old Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society article on the street names of Penang.

Mark Yong
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby Mark Yong » Sun May 29, 2011 6:58 pm

amhoanna wrote:
I have to say Ciáⁿcúikáng from another thread is the coolest Hoklo place name I've seen in a while.

There is a PDF of an old document floating around somewhere, that has a comprehensive list of most of the roads and landmarks in Penang that have Hokkien names (and I am not referring to those that are straight-out transliterations of English/Malay names), many of which survive in common use to this day. Off the top of my head:

Green Lane - 青草巷 chae-chau hang
Rifle Range (Ayer Itam area) - 撲銃埔 phaq-cheng-pO
Temple of the Heavenly Lord (along Railway Road) - 天公壇 thiⁿ-kOng thuaⁿ

It does help that the Penang state government recently rolled out new street signs with the Chinese characters for the Hokkien versions of the street names in inner Georgetown. Hence, I only listed above a sampling of those that are either not street names, or fall outside of the inner city.

There is a place in 大山骹 Bukit Mertajam on the mainland called 風沙菀, which the locals pronounce as hOng-sua-eeⁿ.

niuc
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby niuc » Sun May 29, 2011 8:51 pm

amhoanna wrote:I've also heard that up around the northeast corner of TW, the people (Hoklo) used to put the remains (or just bones?) of their dead in big jars and stick these jars in caves way up in the cliffs.

Wow, in the cliffs! Khió-kut-thâu is practised in Bagan too, but the big jars, called hōng-kim (奉金?), are put in a temple. Not sure if those could have been put into caves should there were cliffs around Bagan.

For extra credit, do keep an eye out for Hokkien POJ street signs in the prefecture of Gîlân.

Cool! 8)

Niuc, I've been forgetting to ask U what U-all call Jakarta in Baganese. Did Jakarta have names referring to coconuts at some point?

Jakarta was called 椰城 in Mandarin last time, but not in Bâ-gán-uē; we call it Pa-siâⁿ 吧城 i.e. "Batavia". Some jokingly pronounce Jakarta as diàh-ka-cuàh (catching cockroach). :mrgreen:  

Ah-bin
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Re: Passing through and passing by

Postby Ah-bin » Sun May 29, 2011 8:59 pm

I have the Pdf of the old Street names, if anyone is interested!


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