Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
amhoanna
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby amhoanna » Thu May 26, 2011 1:15 pm

[But I daresay this would be considered by many to be a "very slovenly" way of speaking.]


There's something real familiar about the system U described, Sim. I think people talk this way in TW too. "Ce/he" (T1, always citation) is used just like in your first set of examples. For the second set, TWese would have "cit/hit". For the third set, I think it's either "cit/hit" or unchecked "cí/hí" -- speaker's choice -- w/ the caveat that this set-up can only be used for small numbers of a thing, class, etc. "Slovenly" ce/he might not come w/ this restriction...

Again, just going off impressions.

I'm not from Metro Manila, I'm from Sydney.


I'm sure there's lots of people that live in Sydney and speak 3+ languages. But somebody from Sydney speaking 3+ languages? Wild!
Last edited by amhoanna on Thu May 26, 2011 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ah-bin
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby Ah-bin » Thu May 26, 2011 1:19 pm

Many thanks for these everyone, I hope other Hokkien learners are reading these threads. As far as I know, such information about different varieties of Hokkien is not available anywhere else.

SimL
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby SimL » Thu May 26, 2011 9:05 pm

amhoanna wrote:There's something real familiar about the system U described, Sim. I think people talk this way in TW too.

Hehe! Thanks amhoanna. Despite all my protestations about being a "descriptive linguist", I sometimes feel inadequate about the way I say things, my "incorrect" usage, etc, so it's still reassuring for me to hear that some of the things I do say and which I feel to be sloppy or incorrect are actually known and said by others.

siamiwako
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby siamiwako » Thu May 26, 2011 10:01 pm

siamiwako wrote:
amhoanna wrote:Are you from Metro Manila? I think Manila Hokkien is very Coânciu, with roots in Cìnkang 晉江. Do they say mài elsewhere in the Philippines?


Yes my ancestrl root is from Jinjiang.
I'm not from Metro Manila, I'm from Sydney.


Hardly hear people say Mai. Usually they say mang/m-hang or m-thang.

siamiwako
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby siamiwako » Thu May 26, 2011 10:15 pm

amhoanna wrote:
I'm not from Metro Manila, I'm from Sydney.


I'm sure there's lots of people that live in Sydney and speak 3+ languages. But somebody from Sydney speaking 3+ languages? Wild!


昨晚沒仔細想清楚就立即答覆,真是深感抱歉。
是的,我是從菲國長大後移民到雪梨,但我大部分的時間都在南方的一個小市,因此就回說不是馬尼拉人。

SimL
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby SimL » Fri May 27, 2011 4:42 am

amhoanna wrote:w/ the caveat that this set-up can only be used for small numbers of a thing, class, etc. "Slovenly" ce/he might not come w/ this restriction...

Oh, right. Very well spotted! "Slovenly" ce/he has this restriction as well, probably because the restriction is caused by the "kui", which per se means "a (motley) few".

One couldn't say "he kui-e lang ti tng-suaN" or "he kui-e lang ti in-tO", for example :mrgreen:.

So, we're left with a problem of what to do for "these/those", when it involves a large number...

Ah-bin
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby Ah-bin » Fri May 27, 2011 10:59 am

In this case Penang Hokkien I am guessing one could perhaps just add a "kà-liáu" somewhere to show plurality without being restricted in number.

Há-lê lâng tī Tng-soaⁿ kà-liáu.... "those people in China are.."

Maybe this isn't necessary though, and there are ways of finding out which is singular and which plural from the context.

amhoanna
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby amhoanna » Fri May 27, 2011 3:14 pm

我是從菲國長大後移民到雪梨,但我大部分的時間都在南方的一個小市,因此就回說不是馬尼拉人。


明白!你來自棉蘭佬嗎?來自哪一个城市?

So, we're left with a problem of what to do for "these/those", when it involves a large number..


Well, Sim, I'm not sure if your ce/he plural usage is kosher in TW to begin with. It does fit my gứkám 語感. Suppose someone said, "Ah ce Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng--ho͘ⁿ..." / "Ah ce aTiong--ho͘ⁿ"... Couldn't that refer to either a lone Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng or a multitude, or Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng in general?

SimL
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby SimL » Fri May 27, 2011 7:05 pm

amhoanna wrote:Suppose someone said, "Ah ce Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng--ho͘ⁿ..." / "Ah ce aTiong--ho͘ⁿ"... Couldn't that refer to either a lone Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng or a multitude, or Tn̂gsoaⁿlâng in general?

I think you've got it. This seems to convey a plural (from context).

niuc
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby niuc » Sat May 28, 2011 11:18 pm

Yeleixingfeng wrote:Apparently, we have that too. A lot, but we consciously know that they are two syllables though. Is that same there?

Yeleixingfeng, I pronounce them as one syllable and do not consciously think whether I know that they are contractions of two syllables or not.

amhoanna wrote:Niuc, I've yet to come across any kind of Hoklo that didn't like contractions. Besides "toài" 倒來, which I'm not sure about, all the other contractions U mentioned are used in TW. Unstressed "--loai" is probably heard five or ten times more often than unstressed "--lo̍hlâi". Give a man a quid of betel and watch his Hoklo turn into just one big contraction. :)

Amhoanna, glad to know that! In my variant, the contractions often are the "natural ones", in that saying e.g. tò_laï sounds un-Bagan, feels like a pronunciation on some TW TV drama (although it's actually 轉來 in TW). Real life TW uses more contractions or original pronunciations?

siamiwako
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby siamiwako » Sat May 28, 2011 11:21 pm

amhoanna wrote:明白!你來自棉蘭佬嗎?來自哪一个城市?

三寶顏市 :lol:

amhoanna
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby amhoanna » Sun May 29, 2011 5:43 pm

Niuc, real life TWese Hoklo is heavily elided. It's almost a language that has to be learned sentence by sentence. I could almost swear that "tńg--lâi" TO RETURN turns into "táiⁿ", and mid-sentence "tńglâi" turns into "t[schwá]ⁿ'āiⁿ". And unlike in Coânciu, Klang, Penang, etc., glottal stops are "deleted" except in citation. Also, TWese Hoklo uses a narrower pitch range. I've always wondered if contact with Formosan people and languages had an effect on Hoklo in TW.

Telenovela Hoklo actually sounds stilted to me too. The telenovelas are all overacted. I think they're getting worse now as the last generation of genuine Hoklo-speaking young urban TWese fades into the sunset.

三寶顏市


Ooh... Very interesting part of the world. 有沒有到過蘇祿島嶼, Jolo, etc.?

siamiwako
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby siamiwako » Sun May 29, 2011 6:44 pm

amhoanna wrote:Ooh... Very interesting part of the world. 有沒有到過蘇祿島嶼, Jolo, etc.?

Never dared to travel anywhere near there :) considering it's geographically close.

niuc
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby niuc » Sun May 29, 2011 11:11 pm

amhoanna wrote:Niuc, real life TWese Hoklo is heavily elided. It's almost a language that has to be learned sentence by sentence. I could almost swear that "tńg--lâi" TO RETURN turns into "táiⁿ", and mid-sentence "tńglâi" turns into "t[schwá]ⁿ'āiⁿ". And unlike in Coânciu, Klang, Penang, etc., glottal stops are "deleted" except in citation. Also, TWese Hoklo uses a narrower pitch range. I've always wondered if contact with Formosan people and languages had an effect on Hoklo in TW.

Thank you, Amhoanna! So real life TW Hoklo is quite different! My mom & I were on package tour to Taiwan few years back, but unfortunately we didn't have much opportunity to speak to locals (as most of the time spent on the bus!). Next time when I meet you (Kapan Langit akan mampir di Kota Singa? :mrgreen: ) or Sim or others, I have to ask you guys to show me the glottal stops, as my T2 & T4 sounds exactly the same in citation. Baganese also sounds low-pitched with narrower pitch range too.

amhoanna
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Re: Demonstrative Pronouns Singular and Plural

Postby amhoanna » Mon May 30, 2011 2:41 pm

Tak tahu kapan akan dapat pergi ke Si̍tla̍tpho :cry: Yeah, real life TW Hoklo is elided. I just tend to write everything out in full, b/c ... once U start, where do U stop? But U know how TW Hoklo sounds! Not sure about Sg, but I recall at least some speakers in Pasang (Klang) and Labuan (and Cio̍hsai) having clear, strong glottal stops, even mid-sentence. I'll go hunting on Youtube when I get out from behind this Great Firewall.


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