Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
AndrewAndrew
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby AndrewAndrew » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:20 pm

The -u sounds are attested by Douglas in Tang-oann and villages on Amoy island, so you don't need to go as far as Cuanciu.

Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Ah-bin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:45 pm

Yes, I should have put that in as well, but I wonder why the -u developed in the first place. Were the people in these areas approximating -y the best way they could, whereas others approximated it with -i? I am just speculating until i find out more.

Then again.....
The prevalence of the -u in the earliest areas of out-migration from Fukien (such as Hainan and Lui-chiu) and overseas in sixteenth century Manila and the base language of the Babas would suggest that -u was much more common in the past than it is now!

AndrewAndrew
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby AndrewAndrew » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:59 pm

Why does -u have to have developed from either -i or -y rather than e.g. vice versa? The MC final was -io / -jo apparently.

Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Ah-bin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:41 pm

Ah, that makes perfect sense then. I should have looked that up to start with.

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby amhoanna » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:08 am

-ng and -iⁿ in general seem to have some kind of exchange program going on. Didn't someone here come across a dialect of Hoklo recently that had -ng instead of -iⁿ, e.g. tng for sweet, hn̄g for ear, etc.?

Seems likely that -uiⁿ existed in Coânciu dialects during the "making of Amoy". Isn't 間 kuiⁿ in modern central Coânciu? And isn't 關 kuiⁿ in modern Amoy and the Amoy dialect of Old Tâi'ápak 台北?

There are lú/tū people on TW and some of the Pescadores. I can't recall ever meeting one myself, but some people I knew went to the Pescadores and the local people asked them if they wanted to "cia̍h hû". Don't know if they say mûi/nūi/pūiⁿ though. That would be pretty crazy. Seems as likely as not that that combo was "Born in Penang and Medan". More power to that.

Also what do the Proto-閩 reconstructions have for -y/-u/-i? I'm guessing it was back unrounded -y. The evidence points to a shift from -y to -i and -u. The fact that -i and -u exist in all dialects of Hoklo, etc. Also just that high back unrounded vowels are kind of rare in human language. Also that -i and -u "flank" -y: so some people fronted it, others rounded it, etc. If it was really -u or -i to start, though... Well, stranger things do happen. :P

xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby xng » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:51 am

amhoanna wrote:- :P


Mind telling me which country you're originally from ?

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby amhoanna » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:58 pm

Mind telling me which country you're originally from ?


Well, here's a hint: you watch a lot of our TV serials.

niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby niuc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:37 pm

Thanks, Ah-bin, for correction about Gilan and valuable informations including interesting origin of NZ English.

About j- initial, one of my aunt used it instead of common l- (or d-, or in between) in Bagansiapiapi. As a child, I used to wonder why she pronounced it like that.

It sounds very logical to an amateur like me that E-mng/Amoy variant is a "reduction" or "common denominator" of Cuânciu and Ciangciu variants. Although -y in Cuanciu is usually -i in E-mng, it seems that some are -u, e.g. 師, 思 su, 書 cu (also in Ciangciu?) -> Cuânciu/Tâng-uaⁿ sy, cy.

Amhoanna, I agree with your explanation about -y. How about -er (ə)?

間 is kaiⁿ in Tâng-uaⁿ/Bagansiapiapi (kaiⁿ, king, kan). My Teochew friend told me that some TC variant has it as koiⁿ.

Beside 關 kuiⁿ, I only remember uiⁿ (ui*1, to fiddle a jī-ôr 二胡 or violin) as the only -uiⁿ in my variant (not including múi, núi etc).

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby amhoanna » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:34 pm

Amhoanna, I agree with your explanation about -y. How about -er (ə)?

間 is kaiⁿ in Tâng-uaⁿ/Bagansiapiapi (kaiⁿ, king, kan). My Teochew friend told me that some TC variant has it as koiⁿ.


/ə/ might be trickier business, but I'm guessing the sound changes went on in lockstep. The Coânciu vowel system is probably closest to the "proto-Hoklo" system. As a historical thing, I get the feeling that maybe Coânciu is an "older" form of Hoklo, whereas Ciangciu Hoklo got its start in the Tn̂g era from a Coânciu base, with a mass infusion of Northern hoanná-fighters ... as well as hoanná converting to Hàn identities en masse.

I think you're right about the TC. When I went to Soaⁿthâu, the mototaxista didn't understand me when I said "hit3 keng33", but he understood right away when I said "hit3 kaiⁿ22".

Coh Hiangswe
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Coh Hiangswe » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:01 pm

Hi everyone. It's a long and nice explanation. Open my eyes BIG TIME. :lol:

If you are interesting of reading one of those translation novel I was talking about, here's the link: http://kangzusi.com/Silat_Mandarin_Full.htm

it contains every bukiap translations known to man! :lol:

Coh Hiangswe
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Coh Hiangswe » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:50 pm

amhoanna wrote:Coh s.s., thanks for the link. I'll definitely be in Malang at some pt. I'll be in touch!

These terms "Cina Medan" and "Cina Semarang" are real interesting, not to mention "bahasa Bagansiapiapi" and "bahasa Pontianak". Indonesia is a world unto itself. Is Hokkien still spoken in Semarang?


In kalimantan (Borneo), there's a place called 'Singkawang'. It's where lots of chinese descendants live. I think they still speak Hokkien.

I've never been to Semarang, but in my opinion Hokkien is spoken by the chinese elders everywhere in Indonesia.

xng
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby xng » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:59 am

Coh Hiangswe wrote:
I've never been to Semarang, but in my opinion Hokkien is spoken by the chinese elders everywhere in Indonesia.


Most Indonesian chinese don't speak any chinese dialects except for those who were born in China.

For those minority who do speak, it is heavily mixed with Indon words.

amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby amhoanna » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:05 pm

In kalimantan (Borneo), there's a place called 'Singkawang'. It's where lots of chinese descendants live. I think they still speak Hokkien.

I've never been to Semarang, but in my opinion Hokkien is spoken by the chinese elders everywhere in Indonesia.


Thanks, Coh s.s.

niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby niuc » Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:26 pm

Amhoanna, thank you for the information about /ə/ and TC. But I am surprised that you know "kaiⁿ"! 8) Is it used also in Taiwan or where did you get it?

Coh Hiangswe, thanks for the link and info. About Singkawang, most if not all Chinese there speak Hakka (usually called Khek in Indonesia) instead of Hokkien.

Coh Hiangswe
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:27 pm

Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Coh Hiangswe » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:28 pm

xng wrote:
Coh Hiangswe wrote:
Most Indonesian chinese don't speak any chinese dialects except for those who were born in China.

For those minority who do speak, it is heavily mixed with Indon words.



Yeah you are right. But lots of my friends which are as old as I am (30 years), do speak chinese dialect. Most of them were not born in China. They use it with their parents to talk about something that they don't want 'ordinary' people to understand. But yes, MOST of Indonesian Chinese don't speak chinese.

And please don't use word 'Indon', we take that word as humiliation. I know you don't mean it. But please just use 'Indonesia'. :P :lol:

niuc wrote:
Coh Hiangswe, thanks for the link and info. About Singkawang, most if not all Chinese there speak Hakka (usually called Khek in Indonesia) instead of Hokkien.


Thank you Niuc. I've never been to singkawang, and wondered what kind of dialect they are using. Thank you so much...this opens my mind.


Return to “Hokkien (Minnan) language”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests