Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Coh Hiangswe
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Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Coh Hiangswe » Mon Jan 24, 2011 2:58 pm

Greetings everyone.
I am a newbie here...
Nice to know that there is great hokkien forum like this forum, cuz I've been looking for this for so long.

My first introduction to Hokkien language was from translations of Wuxia (what's the hokkien of this?) novels of Khu Lung (Gu Long), and Chin Yung (Jin YOng). That was from when I was 10 years old. Those novel translations were so popular here in Indonesia 20 or 30 years ago.

Because of this popularity, lots of indonesian writers wrote their own wuxia story using Hokkien terms, idioms, and vocabularies. Kho Ping Hoo was one of the most famous Indonesian wuxia writers.

Unfortunately by the growth of televisions, movies, etc, the kind of novel lost its popularity in early 90's.

2 or 3 years ago, there was a movement from the wuxia lovers to make those translations popular again. They re-print those old books, and published them again. These people, known as "Masyarakat Cerita Silat" or Wuxia Novel Society even encouraged young people to write new stories.

There are lots of new writers now who are working and writng new wuxia stories. They write in Indonesian language, but using lots of Hokkien vocabularies. I am one of this new writer, and am currently working on my story.

I have found this forum is very helpful, and I hope I can finish my novel soon. I really hope Indonesian Wuxia Novel such as Kho Ping Hoo can also be translated to English or Mandarin.

Thank you for reading this :P

Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Ah-bin » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:32 pm

That is excellent news! I'm glad you are using Hokkien vocab instead of Mandarin.

You know about Batu Gantong of course, don't you? He translated many of the famous novels into Baba Malay, and aome of them had Hokkien to Malay glossaries at the front of some of them.

Here is the old thread about them

http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2129&start=0

The last post has a link to the Singapore National Library, which has downloadable pdf' scans of the novels.

I'm sure some of the native speakers here know how to say wuxia in Hokkien...my Hokkien isn't up to that level yet!

niuc
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby niuc » Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:02 am

Hi Coh Hiangswe

Glad to have you here! Selamat bergabung di forum ini!

Thanks for sharing. Some of my friends read Kho Ping Hoo's novels which according to them were very addictive! :mrgreen: However, I have yet to read them myself, or any wuxia (Hokkien: bu2-kiap4) novels for that matter, but mostly only on tv serials. And I remember that búkiap tv serials dubbed into Indonesian then usually use (Ciangciu or Medan) Hokkien pronunciations such as Sin Tiau Hiap Lu, To Liong To, Tio Sam-hong, Tio Bu-ki, Kwek Cheng, Oei Yong, Yo Ko, etc. How about now?

xng
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby xng » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:44 am

Coh Hiangswe wrote:Greetings everyone.

My first introduction to Hokkien language was from translations of Wuxia (what's the hokkien of this?) novels of Khu Lung (Gu Long), and Chin Yung (Jin YOng).
:P


Welcome to this forum !

Which part of Indon are you from ?

Please note that 'Hokkien' is not a single dialect but consists of 3 main dialects ie. Cuanciu, ciangciu, xiamen , which variant are you ?

Coh Hiangswe
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Coh Hiangswe » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:19 pm

Wow, it's nice to see such replies.....
Btw, my internet browser behaves strangely, I can't use 'Quote', so this is the only way I can reply. apologize...

to AH BIN:

I didn't know about Batu Gantong. But I'm very glad you pointed the link so I can check it out. It's nice to know that Indonesia and Malaysia has a lot of common in literature. Btw, Batu Gantong means a Hanging Stone...

to NIUC:

Unfortunately, we don't have those Bukiap serials on TV anymore. There are lots of 'movements' to push TV Stations to re-run those serials in lots of Internet Forums. We hope we can bring it back, so we can get rid those silly sinetrons (Indonesian Soap Opera/ from words: Cinema and Electronic).

And yes, you are very right about the names you mentioned. The 'bukiap novels' in Indonesia HAVE to use Hokkien, otherwise, the 'feel' and the 'tone' of the story wouldn't be the same. I just don't know why. Maybe because from the beginning when those translations were so popular, the hokkien dialect was the only dialect that was used.

Five or three years ago, there were some wuxia translations using Mandarin. But, it just doesn't feels right. A lot of people criticized it, they say the translator should you Hokkien. If I am not mistaken the novels that used Mandarin vocabs were Coh Liu Hsiang/Chu Liu Xiang last three books: Legend of the Peach, Legend of the Moon, and Midnight Orchid.

Kho Ping Hoo? His novel is very very addictive. One of crazy things about his works is that they continues for more than 20 serials. For examples Chin Yung/ Jin Yong only have one trilogy: Sin Tiaw Enghiong, Sin Tiaw Hiap Lu, and To Liong To. Where Kho Ping Hoo has more than 20 continuing serials....crazy...the story spans from Song dinasty to Ching dinasty, from generation to generation... Imagine if Kwee Cheng [from Sin Tiaw Enghiong] has son, grandson, grand-grand son, up to 20 descendants...That's why it's so addictive...

to XNG:

I am from Malang-East Java.
From NIUC, i think the dialect used were Ciangciu. In Indonesia they called it "Cina Medan".
But as far as I know there were also "Cina Semarang" too. Semarang is in Central Java. Many Chinese descendants in Java stil use some unique Javanese dialect mixed with Hokkien. Like : 'Buk' which means 'NO' (maybe from hokkien PUT, or mandarin 'BU), Gua (means "I"), Loteng [from Lau Teng / attic?], Lihay, mie, etc.


Here are some vocabs and idioms I used on my novel. I hope I'm using it rightly...LOL: Btw, I got those words from reading the bukiap translations I was talking about on my first posting.

She = Family name
Kuncu = Gentleman
Siaujin = Lowly
Ceng = Manor
Cukong = Chief, manor chief?
Jiya = sir, master
Hujin = Madam
Thia = Daddy
Thian = Heaven/ God ?
Pakkhia = Beijing
Jicek = second uncle
Liangsim = Good heart
Wanpwe = "I" but used when talking with senior
Cayhe = "I" used when talking with junior?
Cinkehnio = Mother in Law
Gihu = step father
Wangwe = richman
kiam hoat = sword stances
to po = Sabre manual
cin keng = Book that contains great kungfu manual
to hoat = Sabre stances
Tok Ciang = Poisonus palm
Tiat Pu San = armour stance
Kim Na Jiu = wrestling stance
Hwesio = Buddhist priest
Thay Kek Kun = Tai Chi Cuan


PS : I named the protagonist of my own novel after my great grandfather's family name, which is 'Cio'. What do they called 'Cio' in mandarin?
anyway, the protagonist name is Cio San. I don't know the meaning. I just love the sound. :lol:

Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Ah-bin » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:12 am

For quoting you have to copy and paste into the reply (from the recent posts below the reply box), then highlight the bit you want to quote, then press "quote". Perhaps you were trying to use the other quote button (beside the exclamation mark)? I haven't worked out how to use that yet.

I didn't know about Batu Gantong. But I'm very glad you pointed the link so I can check it out. It's nice to know that Indonesia and Malaysia has a lot of common in literature. Btw, Batu Gantong means a Hanging Stone...


Actually, he is one of many, his real name was Cha Boon Kim. There is a Batu Gantong somewhere in Malaysia (is it in Penang?), whihc I suppose is where he got his pen-name.

http://infopedia.nl.sg/articles/SIP_1337_2008-10-07.html

Here is a list of a whole lot of translations by others
http://mjcs.fsktm.um.edu.my/document.aspx?FileName=186.pdf

And yes, you are very right about the names you mentioned. The 'bukiap novels' in Indonesia HAVE to use Hokkien, otherwise, the 'feel' and the 'tone' of the story wouldn't be the same. I just don't know why. Maybe because from the beginning when those translations were so popular, the hokkien dialect was the only dialect that was used.


This is good to know. I think the same might be true in Thailand with Teochew names (or maybe Hokkien, Amhoanna, do you know?) in novels, because of the influence and fame of the translation of Samkok.

Now I pressed "submit" by mistake, so I'm going to have to split this post it two...

Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Ah-bin » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:51 am

....and now for some comments on the vocabulary.

Thia = Daddy - do you aspirate this word? I know it as "tia", I don't know if other people say it with aspiration.

Pakkhia = Beijing
Same with this one. I would say Pakkia, and I am wondering, did the nasalised sound survive in Hokkien loans into Indonesian? Perhaps not. In Hokkien itself this would be Pak-kiaⁿ

Hwesio = Buddhist priest

Now this last one indicates a Chiang-chiu inflence, (Hwe-sioⁿ) in Amoy it would be Hwesiuⁿ, liangsim is also Chiang-chiu (Amoy liong-sim).

A while back I typed out the preface to the Second volume of Batu Gantong’s Sam Kok, and I've posted it here to let you see what kind of Malay he was writing in.... bahasa Malayu "pelet"by his own admission! I believe this also contains his rationale for choosing one transliteration over another. He was using "Raja Khong Hi punya Dictionary" through Hokkien, a lost skill, unfortunately.

Bila ini chrita, kitab ka-satu, suda kluar, banyak kawan2 kita suka mau bacha; tetapi, dia orang ada kata, karna harga-nya ada sadikit mahal, jadi dia orang tiadak boleh kluar duit; yang batol-nya kalau kera dari tulis-an-nya dengan chakap-an-nya; tiadak lah mahal; barangkali sobat2 andei kita pikir, saya bikin ini chrita, ada banyak untong; ka-batolan saya ada rugi; sakarang apa buleh buat, saya masti bikin ini chrita sampey-kan habis spaya sobat2 andei kita, buleh dapat liat sampey pang-habis-an, suda lah.

Pasal chakap-an ini bahasa malayu pelet, tiadak ada satu sobat parna datang kasi correct; enta apa-pasal-nya? Barangkali itu chakap-an orang twa-twa ada bilang ‘siapa yang makan daging sa-hari bari, suka jugak mau tukar makan ikan sa-kali-kali’ hagitu pun, tiadak buleh tau: kalau pikir-an saya ini ada batol, jadi itu yang chakap malayu batol, kadang2 mau dengar jugak itu bahasa malayu yang pelet, maka dia orang buleh ter-gli ati-nya.

Ada dua kawan saya, datang check sama saya, kata, “itu nama Tok Ew punya ‘Ew’ sama itu Bun Ch’ew punya ‘Ch’ew,’ ada sala.” Tok Ew sama Bun Chew, dia orang kata ‘patot di bacha – T’ok Swi dengan Bun T’hew:’ Kalu dia orang bukak Khong Hi Ji Tian (Raja Khong Hi punya Dictionary – Logat) tengok, dia orang tuntu serta buleh tau, saya tiadak sala.

Bila Tan Kiong suda angkat tangan mau ta-tak-kan sama Cho Ch’oe, ati-nya serta murta balek ter-pikir: “Karna pakara negri, saya suda ikot sama dia datang disini, kalau buno dia mati, hadat-nya tadok patot, labeh baik lapaskan sama dia, saya buleh pergi di di lain tumpat suda lah.”


I've tried to enter the characters for as many of the words as I could. Some of them I am not sure of. Everything else I have left in bold as a temptation for other forum members.

She = Family name
Kuncu = Gentleman 君子
Siaujin = Lowly 小人
Ceng = Manor 
Cukong = Chief, manor chief? 厝公 or 主公
Jiya = sir, master 二爺
Hujin = Madam 夫人
Thia = Daddy 爹
Thian = Heaven/ God ? 天
Pakkhia = Beijing 北京
Jicek = second uncle 二叔
Liangsim = Good heart 良心
Wanpwe = "I" but used when talking with senior 晚輩
Cayhe = "I" used when talking with junior?
Cinkehnio = Mother in Law ?家娘
Gihu = step father 義父
Wangwe = richman
kiam hoat = sword stances 劍法
to po = Sabre manual 刀譜
cin keng = Book that contains great kungfu manual 真經
to hoat = Sabre stances 刀法
Tok Ciang = Poisonus palm 毒棕
Tiat Pu San = armour stance
Kim Na Jiu = wrestling stance

Hwesio = Buddhist priest 和尚
Thay Kek Kun = Tai Chi Cuan 太極拳

amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby amhoanna » Wed Jan 26, 2011 3:43 pm

She = Family name
Cinkehnio = Mother in Law ?家娘
Wangwe = richman


1. Poss. 施 Si
2. 親家娘
3. This reminds me of a name from the depths of "Hoklore" :P : 許員外 Khó͘ Goân'goē. I forget how the story goes, tho.

***

Good to hear that people insisted on Hokkien. Otherwise it would've turned out like getai. :mrgreen: Not sure what the situation is in Thailand. Will keep an eye out. I'll start a thread on "Ho̍kló/Tiôciu in Thailand" by and by.

Encik Coh, very interesting to hear from someone from East Java. I'm fascinated by what I've heard and read about the place. Indian culture, etc. Gua akan pergi ke sana minggu ini, for the first time.

What do U mean by "there were also Cina Semarang"?

What do they called 'Cio' in mandarin?

Sounds like 蔣 Cióⁿ/Ciúⁿ. Would be Jiang (3rd tone) in Mand, as in "Chiang" Kaishek.

***

And by the way, where are U from, Xng?

I'm guessing KL or Sinsoaⁿ. :mrgreen:

Coh Hiangswe
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Coh Hiangswe » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:17 pm

Amhoanna:

In Indonesia, the hokkien dialect is called "Cina Medan" dialect. But in my opinion there is also 'Cina semarang' dialect too. This is 'Cina Semarang' dialect was used in lots of bukiap translations, because lots of translators were from Java. And semarang is a city located in Java, which is different with 'Medan' which is located in Sumatera island. This is why I conclude that lots of bukiap translations were using Cina Semarang. This we can see from difference of using Pakkhia and Pakkia. Well, this is just my theory, and I am willing to learn more about this. Because it's very interesting. Learning language is like learning your own history.. :lol:

so maybe, just maybe, Cina medan is Amoy Hokkien, and Cina semarang is another hokkien type..

If you are planning to go to my city, there are lots of Hindu Temples. I could help if you might need something. :P
This is the link about my hometown: http://www.eastjava.com/tourism/malang/

Ah-Bin:

Thank you for posting the quote of Batu Gantong. It's nice to know that the language he used bears close resemblance to what Indonesian are using now. I don't know, which one is 'Malay Pelet'?, the ones that use double comma (")? . It's close to what Malaysians are using know. like:

“Karna pakara negri, saya suda ikot sama dia datang disini, kalau buno dia mati, hadat-nya tadok patot, labeh baik lapaskan sama dia, saya buleh pergi di di lain tumpat suda lah.”


Those sentences are different in style with this:

"Bila ini chrita, kitab ka-satu, suda kluar, banyak kawan2 kita suka mau bacha; tetapi, dia orang ada kata, karna harga-nya ada sadikit mahal, jadi dia orang tiadak boleh kluar duit; yang batol-nya kalau kera dari tulis-an-nya dengan chakap-an-nya; tiadak lah mahal; barangkali sobat2 andei kita pikir, saya bikin ini chrita, ada banyak untong; ka-batolan saya ada rugi; sakarang apa buleh buat, saya masti bikin ini chrita sampey-kan habis spaya sobat2 andei kita, buleh dapat liat sampey pang-habis-an, suda lah"

That sentence above are from the first paragraph of the quote, which I think bear closest resemblance with bahasa Indonesia. Thank you again..



PS: thanks for the "Cio" thing. Now I know my family name in mandarin. :lol:

Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Ah-bin » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:40 pm

so maybe, just maybe, Cina medan is Amoy Hokkien, and Cina semarang is another hokkien type..


Ah...okay...silly me we have talked about Medan Hokkien somewhere before (doesn't always stick to topic though)

http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7926&hilit=medan+hokkien
http://www.chineselanguage.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6933&p=26386&hilit=sumatran+hokkien#p26386

As far as I can tell the romanisations you are using reflect Northern Sumatran Hokkien pronunciation (is that Bahasa Cina Medan? Niuc will know an awful lot more about this than I do.). I have a PDF artlcie with a basic description and vocabulary of Northern Sumatran Hokkien It's more like a mix of Chiang-chiu and Choan-chiu, (like Amoy is) but a different mix from what you get in Amoy.

For example:
Northern Sumatran Hokkien uses lu,(you) tu (you), hu (fish), and tu (chopsticks) which is a bit closer to the sound used in Choan-chiu (people here will usually write as "y": ly, ty, etc.) but at the same time uses ioⁿ endings (like your surname) instead of iuⁿ, and j- as an initial sound (as in jiya), and -uiⁿ for some -nng endings as in mui for "door" instead of mng. All of these are typical Chiang-chiu.

Amoy on the other hand, does it the other way and follows Chiang-chiu in saying li, ti, hi, and ti for all those words, but follows Chuan-chiu in saying iuⁿ, using l- instead of j- (liya) and mng for door. These ones are typical Choan-chiu.

Pak-kia would be the same in both varieties of Hokkien I think, same as tia, I am not sure where the aspirations have crept in from.

(just edited this to add "pelet" which I think I looked up somewhere, it meant "twisted" I think!)

niuc
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby niuc » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:11 am

Coh Hiangswe, thank you for sharing, also for the list of Hokkien words used in búkiap novels. I agree with you that somehow Hokkien terms fits better in Indonesian, may be because we are already used to so many Hokkien words loaned into Bahasa Indonesia. IMHO the phonology of both are more similar than to Mandarin.

Btw I think Tok Ciang = Poisonus palm = 毒掌 , hand's palm.
Cayhe = "I" used when talking with junior = 在下
Tiat Pu San = armour stance -> Tiat may be 鐵 (thiat).

About Medan Hokkien, I only know that it is very similar to Penang Hokkien, as confirmed by Sim also.

Ah-bin, your analysis about Medan/Penang/Gilan variant as mix of Cuanciu & Ciangciu in the reverse way of E-mng is enlightening! Do you know where in Hokkien province is this variant spoken?

xng
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby xng » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:40 am

amhoanna wrote:And by the way, where are U from, Xng?

I'm guessing KL or Sinsoaⁿ. :mrgreen:


I am from KL judging from my past indifferences to Penang Hokkien posts.

Are you a Thai Chinese ? Which part of Thailand ?

amhoanna
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby amhoanna » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:45 am

Coh s.s., thanks for the link. I'll definitely be in Malang at some pt. I'll be in touch!

These terms "Cina Medan" and "Cina Semarang" are real interesting, not to mention "bahasa Bagansiapiapi" and "bahasa Pontianak". Indonesia is a world unto itself. Is Hokkien still spoken in Semarang?

Xng -- I'm guessing U speak real good Cantonese then! Ah goá ho͘ⁿ, goá sī Bílētó lâng lah. :mrgreen:

xng
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby xng » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:00 am

amhoanna wrote:
Xng -- I'm guessing U speak real good Cantonese then! Ah goá ho͘ⁿ, goá sī Bílētó lâng lah. :mrgreen:


What is bileto ? Please write in English.

PS: Yah, I speak good pure cantonese too (not those mixed canto).

Ah-bin
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Re: Hokkien and Indonesia 'Wuxia' novels

Postby Ah-bin » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:14 am

Ah-bin, your analysis about Medan/Penang/Gilan variant as mix of Cuanciu & Ciangciu in the reverse way of E-mng is enlightening! Do you know where in Hokkien province is this variant spoken?


I think the Gî-lân variant is definitely in the Chiang-chiu camp (doesn't have lú, hû, tu only lí, hî, ti). I haven't found anywhere in China or Taiwan where anything corresponding to the Northern Malaysian/Medan style is used. The test case is a dialect that uses pūiⁿ mûi and lú, hû, tu simultaneously, I don't think such a dialect exists now.

So either Bahasa Cina Medan is “Made in Hoan-péng" from dialect mixing (not unusual, US and Canadian English are the results of just the same process, as is Amoy Hokkien itself), or it is a preservation of some older regional form that has been lost in China through migration and mixing in the Amoy area. I would say it's probably a bit of both, but the exact processes are not known.

Looking at the way Douglas preserves the distinction between j- and l- initials in a dictionary of Amoy speech, I would guess that this distinction was lost in Amoy only within the last century. (See also p.124 of van der Loon http://www.ihp.sinica.edu.tw/~asiamajor/pdf/1967/1967-95.pdf)

I have just thought up a theory about the phonological system of Amoy as a "reduction" to features common to Chiang-chiu and Choan-chiu. What I mean by this is that phonological features unique to either Chiang-chiu or Choan-chiu were lost in the formation of Modern Amoy.

Examples:
Initial j- and final -ūiⁿ and -e• were found mainly in Chiang-chiu, but people from Choan-chiu couldn't pronounce them. Chiang-chiu does have initial l- and final -ng and -e for other words, so Amoy eventually developed the features that people from both areas could pronounce. In the opposite direction, Choan-chiu has final -y and Chiang-chiu does not, so Amoy reduced the -y endings to -i, an ending that also existed in Choan-chiu (just for different words).

This doesn't explain Penang/Medan Hokkien though. The retention of -ūiⁿ and j- in these varieties would suggest that Chiang-chiu people were the main group and people from other areas just had to learn those sounds, but why did they start saying lú, hû, tu? I think maybe lú, hû, tu actually developed from ly, hy, and ty (perhaps from Teochew even?) but because this vowel sound -y doesn't exist in Chiang-chiu, people approximated it with -u.

Something needs to be done on the origins of different types of Southeast Asian Hokkien similar to this:
http://www.victoria.ac.nz/lals/research/grinze/publications/Origins_of_NZ_English.pdf

Btw I think Tok Ciang = Poisonus palm = 毒掌 , hand's palm.


Yes.....of course this makes much more sense! I imagined that there was some palm tree that someone was making poison out of..... :lol:


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