Original chinese characters for Minnan

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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coykiesaol
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Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by coykiesaol » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:36 pm

The reason why min language is significantly different from cantonese and mandarin is because some characters were used in old chinese but not cantonese/mandarin anymore.
Character - Sound / Meaning

汝 - Lu, Ly / You
伊 - Ee / He,she
毋 - Mm / Not
使 - Sai / Can
拍 - P'ak / Hit
逐 - Tak / Every (day etc)
掠 - Lia / Catch
寒 - Kua / Cold
偌 - Lua / How (much, big etc)
濟 - Cay / Many, numerous
較 - K'a / Compare
緊 - Kin / Fast
箸 - Tu / Chopstick
鼎 - Tia / Wok
著 - Tiuk / Correct
著 - Ti / 「在」
抹 - Bua / Apply (medicine etc)
呸 - P'ui / Spit
拭 - C'it / Wipe with cloth
扛 - Keng / Lift with shoulders
飼 - C'i / Feed

厝 - C'u / House
戇 - Gong / Stupid
枵 - Iau / Hungry
晡 - Po / Afternoon
糜 - Muei / Porridge
與 - Ho / Give
共 - Ka(ng) / Together, with
蟳 - Cim / Crab
烏 - O / Black
吼 - Hau / Cry
疼 - T'ia / Painful
愈 - Nu / More
曉 - Hiau / Understand, Know
炊 - C'ui / Steam (food)
歕 - Pun / Blow (wind)
摻 - C'am / Mix (food etc)
沃 - Ak / Pour water, irrigate
懸 - Kuan,Kui / Tall
冗 - Ling / Loose

犭肖 - Siau / Mad
㴷 (糊糊) - Tam (Kou Kou) / Wet
刣 - T'ai / Kill

綴 - Tue / Follow
恬 - Tiam / Silent
轉 - Teng / Go back
縛 - Pak / Tie (a string etc)
歇 - Hio / Rest
睏 - K'un / Sleep
頂 - Ting / Last (time), Upper (floor)
潐 - Ta / Dry (quote from modern dictionary 水盡)
趖 - Sou / Walk or do things very slowly similar to dragging the feet
捋 - Lua / Comb (hair)
捍 - Hua / Uphold
故 - Kou / Again
褪 - T'eng / Remove
芳 - P'ang / Fragrant
曝 - P'ak / Dry by sun (clothes etc)
翁 - Ang / Husband or Old man
姥 - Bo / Wife or Old woman
囝 - Kiann / Child

毋會 - Bay (Combination of Mm and Ay) / Cannot
毋通- Mm T'ang / Don't
毋愛 - Mai (combination of Mm and Ai) / Don't want
相同 - Siang (combination of Sio and Tang) / Same
許 - Hi, Hy / That
許一 - Hit (combination of Hi and It) / That
之一 - Cit (combination of Ci and It)/ This

否 - P'ai / Bad
否勢 - P'ai Say / Sorry
暗瞑 - Am Mi / At Night
合意 - Ka Ee / To like
臭焦 - C'au Ta / Burnt, scorched
攏總 - Long Cong / All
灶骹 - Cau K'a / Kitchen
夭壽 - Iau Siu / Short life (for scolding people)
跋倒 - Pua To / Fall down
淡薄 - Tam Puk/ A little
細膩 - Say Li / Careful
閃開 - Siam K'ui / Move away
目屎 - Bak Sai / Tears
底時 - Ti Si / When
雞婆 - Kay Po/ Busybody

尻川 - K'a C'eng / Buttocks
卵 - Neng / Egg
卵鳥 - Lan Jiau / Penis
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amhoanna
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by amhoanna » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:23 pm

I notice a lot of people out there using 未 to write [勿會], including people whose kanji usage is fairly well thought out. This is not only etymologically off, but also way confusing for the average Beng. I guess it really bugs me. Why do people do this? Any logical reason?
niuc
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by niuc » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:41 am

Probably because in certain variants, [勿會] and 未 are pronounced as bē. In my variant they are quite different, buē and bē· (=bēr).
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by amhoanna » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:40 am

In Mainstream TWnese, [勿會] = bē and 未 = boē.

In Amoy TWnese, and Mainstream Amoy, these two are flipped.

I've never heard or heard about a dialect where the two were merged! But the potential for confusion is always there, esp. with different dialects in earshot of each other throughout most of the Hoklosphere. No doubt there's some "not 3, not 4" semi-speakers who mix the two w/o even knowing the difference.

Although I think Sisuahlai wrote a blog post about the general trend of 無 and 勿會 and maybe 未 as well all merging in his dialect (Kuching, Sarawak).

There was a TWnese blogger who wrote a post justifying the use of 未 for both 未 and 勿會, saying that which is which is always clear from context. I can't help thinking that the real thinking behind all this is a wish to write Hoklo using just kanji that are used in everyday Mandoscripts. Or am I missing something?
siamiwako
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by siamiwako » Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:06 am

This is how I say them (I seem to use strong "d" as oppose to "l" 可能被南洋化了吧???):
汝 - Di / You
拍 - P'a / Hit
掠 - Dia / Catch
偌 - Dua / How (much, big etc)
濟 - Cue / Many, numerous (是不是“多”的意思?)
箸 - Ti / Chopstick
著 - Tio / Correct
扛 - Kua/Ta / Lift with shoulders (與“肝”同音)

糜 - Be / Porridge(是粥的意思?)
共 - Kiong/Sang / Together, with
炊 - C'e / Steam (food)
冗 - Deng / Loose

綴 - Te / Follow
歇 - Hio / Rest
睏 - K'un / Sleep (I find 歇睏 to mean rest interesting, we say "hiu sek" 休息)
趖 - So / Walk or do things very slowly similar to dragging the feet (應該是指“爬”吧???)
捋 - Dua / Comb (hair)
囝 - Kin-na / Child

毋會 - Bue (Combination of Mm and Ay) / Cannot
毋愛 - Em-ai (combination of Mm and Ai) / Don't want
相同 - Sa-tang (combination of Sio and Tang) / Same

淡薄 - Tam-po/ A little
細膩 - Sue-di / Careful
閃開 - Siam K'ui or Siam-tsau/ Move away
*家婆 - Ke Po/ Busybody
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by niuc » Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:39 am

Amhoanna, thanks for explaining. I c, so actually [勿會] and 未 are always different in historical variants. I think some Singaporeans also has mixed them. Personally I also don't see the logical reason why they could be both written as 未.

Siamiwako, your vocabs are very similar to my variant. However, "to lift with shoulder(s)" in my variant is 擔 taⁿ; while kuāⁿ in my variant means "to carry with hand using bag or rope". 扛 "kng" in my variant means to carry / lift up heavy things.
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by siamiwako » Sun Sep 18, 2011 4:21 pm

niuc wrote: Siamiwako, your vocabs are very similar to my variant. However, "to lift with shoulder(s)" in my variant is 擔 taⁿ; while kuāⁿ in my variant means "to carry with hand using bag or rope". 扛 "kng" in my variant means to carry / lift up heavy things.
You're right! Ta 擔 is different from kua. 擔 should be closer to 挑(挑水).

扛/Ka (nasal)
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by amhoanna » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:48 pm

A related question. Are there any dialects where 會 is oẽ, not ẽ?

Since the TWnese traditionally sing songs in Amoy dialect, I've heard phrasage like "kám oẽsái" in songs. But, not sure if anybody actually talks like that. Seems like 會 is ẽ in speech in Amoy-type dialects as well?

Siamiwako, thanks for sharing the Pinoy Hoklo. No surprises there, most of the words and usages seem to be very similar to Taiwan-Amoy. I would love to see some sentences sometime! I always hear that sentence in my head: "Si di abe paga din..." :lol:

My guess is that L or D sounds like [d] in Cìnkang and around there.

BTW, did U learn Hoklo romanization somewhere? Your romanization is very consistent.
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by amhoanna » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:02 pm

BTW when I was passing through Cambodia a few days ago, I noticed lots of romanized Teochew/Hokkien on signs everywhere, esp. in and around Phnom Penh. Some signs used "d" for /l/.

The romanization on the signs was remarkably consistent, all things considered.

There were also lots of signs in Mandarin (Pinyin), and some in Vietnamese. There was one other language, a "mystery language" where 蘇源 became So Nguon. Anyone care to guess?

My guess: Hoisan. Second guess: Hakka.

The "Chinese language" seems to enjoy a status in Phnom Penh similar to what it has going on in Sabah, with about the same penetration of PRC kanji. (Down the road in Saigon, PRC kanji are a rare sight!) Shop signs reflect the Hoklo (mostly Teochew) heritage of P.P. Tnglang, but Cantonese seems to be more widely spoken at this pt. I went inside a big bookstore where up to a quarter of the books were in Chinese (mostly PRC kanji). This seems to tip off that much of the population is Chinese-educated and may well read Chinese more skilfully than Khmer. Some of the employees were gabbing away in Vietnamese. Such multiculturalism is rare indeed in postcolonial S.E. There were a few books and CDs for learning Mandarin, and two sets for learning Cantonese, which seems to be a popular language to learn there.

I spoke to a young Cambodian dude at the Thai border who said his father spoke fluent VNmese and his mother fluent Chinese -- most likely Teochew, but I don't think he knew. He knew a little VNmese and little Mandarin, but when I said "ciạ'puịⁿ" to see if he knew any Teochew, he thought I was asking him if he spoke Japanese. In any case, wherever a Chinese-speaking woman is having the babies of a non-Chinese-speaking guy, U know the Tnglang are well and truly entrenched in that place -- even West Malaysia isn' there yet.
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by aokh1979 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:15 am

I use 昧 for bē (cannot) and 未 buē (not yet) in Penang variant......

昧曉 - bē-hiáu
昧使 - bē-sái
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by niuc » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:52 pm

Hi Amhoanna

Good question. My vague impression is that I ever heard some pronounced 會 as uē, but not sure when & which variant(s). As you said, most (if not) all Hokkien variants that I ever heard, including E-mng, say ē. So I think that [勿會] buē in my variant is from 無 bô + 會 ē -> boē -> buē. Good thing that just now I had the idea of asking my Teochew friend, who confirms that in his Teochew variant: 會 indeed is oē ('o' there is really 'o', not 'u'; so it really sounds oē, unlike POJ oē which actually sounds uē). And he pronounces [勿會] & 未 both as boē (not buē)! :idea:

About 'l' & 'd' sounds, I find them interesting and quite mixed up in my variant, e.g.:
'la', 'lai', 'lau', 'lam', 'lan', 'lang', 'lak', 'lap', 'lak', 'lat' -> same.
'li' -> usually still 'li' e.g. 李, 理, 離, 籬; exception: 利 often becomes 'dī'.
'ji' -> usually 'di' e.g. 字, 二; exception: 兒 often becomes 'lî';
(it seems that lî/jî often -> lî, while lī/jī often -> dī).
'lin' -> often becomes 'din' e.g. 恁, 乳/奶.
'jin' -> usually 'din' e.g. 人, 仁.
In any case, wherever a Chinese-speaking woman is having the babies of a non-Chinese-speaking guy, U know the Tnglang are well and truly entrenched in that place -- even West Malaysia isn' there yet.
You mean "entrenced" in the sense of "assimilated"? When I was on a business trip to Bangkok a few years ago, there was a Thai Teochew young lady who just married a "native" Thai. She was very "Chinese"-looking & fair skinned while he was dark skinned and very non-"Chinese" looking. I was a bit surprised on how at ease she & all colleagues (many of them were "Chinese"-looking) were about the mix-marriage. Surely there were Chinese ladies who married "natives" in Indonesia & Malaysia, I met some, but they were exception; while in Thailand it seems to be a "norm". I think this has a lot to do with religion, because most Thais (& mainland SEAsia) are Buddhists & so are most Chinese there; also the culture may be more similar due to proximity with China (compared to Msia/Idn). How about TW, how often Hoklo/Hakka ladies married Alisan-lâng?
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by amhoanna » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:55 pm

Interesting with the Teochew!

I've been thinking ... so many of our "problem kanji" are actually contractions.

"Bētàng" is just 無會得通.

未当? 袂凍? These could be resolved if we could just make the characters we needed and add them to Unicode / UTF-8 or whatever... Actually, 𢓶 already exists. :lol:

d/l: Thanks for sharing, once again. Coincidentally, Vietnamese "d" is /z/ is some dialects, /j/ in others. (/j/ as in the English word YAY.) In general medieval Vietnamese, the corresponding reflex was indeed something like /d/.
You mean "entrenced" in the sense of "assimilated"?
Mutually assimilating!

In Sabah, Cambodia, Saigon, and maybe Sarawak and some other places, it's common for people with just partial Tnglang ancestry to speak one or more Sino tongues. In Bangkok, I'm guessing it was done at some pt, but my guess is that most orang Bangkok with one non-Sino parent nowadays can't speak any Sino language. My impression is that most orang Bangkok under a certain age can't speak any Sino language even if they have two Sino parents.

Moslem-infidel marriages are discouraged in SEA nowadays, no doubt about that. Yet I'm under the impression that when one side is Moslem and the other side is non-Moslem AND SINO, the Moslem side is statistically overwhelmingly female. This is the point I was making, that Chinese women tend to be more endogamous, or "conservative", than the men in situations of cultural continuity. The reverse may be true in situations of cultural discontinuity, e.g. the Anglostans, where cultural "generation gaps" crop up from the time of arrival and out-marriages tend to be Chinese woman + White man.

There's something very "equal" about the Cambodia or Sabah model. Men and women outmarry equally. Offspring take after all their heritage cultures +/- equally.

I'm under the impression that there are lots of Chinese + Batak couples in and around Sumatera? Are there lots of Chinese woman + Batak man couples?

The TWnese situation: Anecdotally, the only Han + Alisan couples I know of socially are one or two generations up, where Chiang's soldiers took Alisan wives. Here we're not counting Sinicized Plains Aborigines as orang Alisan. The pop culture when I was a kid used to reinforce a stereotype that Alisan men would always "tńgkhì soaⁿténg" when they wanted to get married. Ironically, in reality, lots of highland girls back then were already down in the cities selling sex. In the past generation the Alisan have gone more mainstream. In any case, there's no preservation of the old Formosan cultures whatsoever when Han + Alisan. The Alisan partner conforms to Han culture. So do the kids. See baseball star 陳致遠 and his wife (pretty sure she's Han). Alisan songstress 温嵐 has never been packaged as anything but an R.O.C. starlet with an urban, "Americanized" twist. Alisan songstress 秀蘭瑪雅 was packaged as +/- "all-Taiwanese", although she sings in Hoklo w/ a heavy Amer. English accent. Then there's Amis aMei 阿妹. I bet plenty of fans off-island don't know she ain't Han.

Recently the movie SEEDIQ BALE came out, with most of the dialog in Seediq. At first, a lot of media outlets classified it as a 華語 "Chinese" movie! (華語 doesn't mean MANDARIN in that context.) There was a bit of an uproar over that and I'm curious to see how it's played out.
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by niuc » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:04 pm

Ah! You hit it! It totally makes sense that bē-tàng is just 無會得通.
Actually, 𢓶 already exists.
Upsssttt! I cannot see the TLJ, just a square.

d/j: in old spelling of Bahasa Indonesia, 'j' is 'y' (Ejaan Baru, 1972), while 'j' was written as 'dj', 'u' was 'oe' (following Dutch?). So Jakarta was Djakarta and Surabaya was Soerabaja.

The lady whose salon I go to for hair cut is a Sabahan Nyonya. Indeed she speaks Malay, Hokkien and accented Mandarin. Although mostly I speak to her in Indonesian, sometimes she throws in Hokkien terms/sentences. About Bangkok, I have the same impression from my then conversations with Teochew colleagues there. In several Thai movies I watched, there are always some short conversations in Teochew spoken by the parents and grandparents that are understood by the youngsters but the latter always reply in Thai.
Yet I'm under the impression that when one side is Moslem and the other side is non-Moslem AND SINO, the Moslem side is statistically overwhelmingly female.
Probably. The ones I know are about 50-50. And most of the time the Chinese would need to convert. The female converts usually practise the religion more than the male ones, probably due to the fact that traditionally and religiously (extremely emphasized in Islam) speaking a wife should followed & under the authority of her husband. Male converts often still eat pork outside and rarely go to mosques or Friday prayer assembly (only for men).
The reverse may be true in situations of cultural discontinuity, e.g. the Anglostans, where cultural "generation gaps" crop up from the time of arrival and out-marriages tend to be Chinese woman + White man.
IMHO, the consistent factor is social rank and wealth. Many Asians still think of Angmohs as richer if not also higher in the social ranking, that's why a lot of Asian women (including Austronesians) out-marry to Angmohs. Let's say in the future Asians or Africans are much more richer and powerful (thus higher in term of social ranking) than Angmohs, then Asian women will hardly marry Angmohs anymore but to (other) Asians or Africans. In fact nowadays there are many Angmoh ladies who married rich Arabs & convert to Islam, right? Chinese women usually didn't/don't marry "native" men because they perceive most of them as "lower" and/or "poorer". One of my distant relative married a Moslem general (or some high rank soldier) in Riau and none seemed to object to that, unlike when the other (including men) married "poor/uncultured natives". Here I see a consistent pattern.
There's something very "equal" about the Cambodia or Sabah model. Men and women outmarry equally. Offspring take after all their heritage cultures +/- equally.
That is great! :mrgreen: Some among my family/relatives (Christians) are similar to that, actually not pure "native" but also some Eurasians (Dutch & Portuguese ancestries), in fact 1 man & 2 or 3 women; but 1 or 2 of the women themselves are mixed Chinese & "native" tribes, so roughly about equal percentage.
I'm under the impression that there are lots of Chinese + Batak couples in and around Sumatera? Are there lots of Chinese woman + Batak man couples?
I think so, also because Bataks (Toba & Karo) mostly are Christians (or rather Batak tribes with Moslem majority e.g. Mandailing refuse the name "Batak") and similar to Chinese in certain cultural things such as having patrilineal surnames & patriarchal structure. [They also have second burial custom!] In Bagansiapiapi I ever went to a rich Batak doctor whose wife was Chinese. I also heard from some people about another woman whose Batak husband helped to wash clothes (manually, there was no washing machine). Our impression was that Batak men were much more readier to help with house chores than Chinese. In fact I think there are more Chinese women (than men) married to Batak. A lot of (most?) Batak women (and men) are dark skinned and 粗肢骨/大顆, so probably that's a factor also.
Then there's Amis aMei 阿妹. I bet plenty of fans off-island don't know she ain't Han.
When I first knew about aMei many years ago, I thought she was Han (albeit with strong "Viet"/Southern features, not really a rarity among many Southern Chinese). But soon I read/heard that she wasn't Han, a surprise not so much about her appearance than about her popularity in TW. Later as the time went by, it became clear that there had been indeed many Alisan singers & celebrities etc. Btw 高金素梅 doesn't look like a typical Alisan.
Recently the movie SEEDIQ BALE came out, with most of the dialog in Seediq. At first, a lot of media outlets classified it as a 華語 "Chinese" movie! (華語 doesn't mean MANDARIN in that context.) There was a bit of an uproar over that and I'm curious to see how it's played out.
Please keep us updated. I read somewhere that the movie has no English subtitles? It's interesting that 華語 in that context doesn't mean Mandarin or any other Chinese (Sino) languages. I heard of 中華民族 used to include all tribes (or nations?) in 中國, but this is the first time I read of 華語 used to include non-Han languages, which in fact is consistent with that 中華 concept.
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by amhoanna » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:22 pm

this is the first time I read of 華語 used to include non-Han languages, which in fact is consistent with that 中華 concept.
The fact that the inclusion of a Seediq-language movie in the 華語 category, technically correct w/i the 中華民族 Tionghoa worldview, was "attacked" or brought to task so quickly and ruthlessly, and apparently undone w/o much debate or controversy, is a "good sign" that the Tionghoa 中華 concept is not doing too well on Taiwan these days!
IMHO, the consistent factor is social rank and wealth.
Memang!
Probably. The ones I know are about 50-50.
Interesting.
d/j: in old spelling of Bahasa Indonesia, 'j' is 'y'
Same in the IPA! (Kokcè Imphiau) ...
"y" represents the front rounded vowel in Mandarin qu4 去.
The lady whose salon I go to for hair cut is a Sabahan Nyonya. Indeed she speaks Malay, Hokkien and accented Mandarin. Although mostly I speak to her in Indonesian, sometimes she throws in Hokkien terms/sentences. About Bangkok, I have the same impression from my then conversations with Teochew colleagues there. In several Thai movies I watched, there are always some short conversations in Teochew spoken by the parents and grandparents that are understood by the youngsters but the latter always reply in Thai.
Interesting. Does she come from around Labuan (Labuhan)?
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Re: Original chinese characters for Minnan

Post by niuc » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:12 am

amhoanna wrote: The fact that the inclusion of a Seediq-language movie in the 華語 category, technically correct w/i the 中華民族 Tionghoa worldview, was "attacked" or brought to task so quickly and ruthlessly, and apparently undone w/o much debate or controversy, is a "good sign" that the Tionghoa 中華 concept is not doing too well on Taiwan these days!
Interesting. Actually I was very surprised when I first knew that particular 中華 concept, as I had always thought of 中華 as just another name for 漢人 or 唐人, not including 藏/蒙/滿/莊/傣/阿里山/等等.
Interesting. Does she come from around Labuan (Labuhan)?
I'll ask her next time.
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