Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizations

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizations

Post by amhoanna » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:42 pm

This info is available in a more readable form on several other blogs and wikis, inc. http://linguafrog.blog.163.com/blog/sta ... 225212787/

Just in case they all go down, though:

菲律宾文地名(所属地区) 新华社译名或音译 菲华文报译名
(按英文字母排列) (普通话) (闽南话)
A
Abra Province (CAR) 阿布拉省 盒捞省
Agusan Del Norte Province(13) 北阿古桑省 北阿(亚)虞山省
Agusan Del Sur Province (13) 南阿古桑省 南阿虞山省
Aklan Province (6) 阿克兰省 阿克兰省(渥兰)
Albay Province (5) 阿尔拜省(亚眉) 亚眉省
Alabel (11) 阿拉贝尔 亚拉未
Alicia (2) 阿里舍 亚里舍
Allacapan (2) 阿里亚卡班 亚惹加坂
Allen (8) 阿林 亚恁
Angeles City (3) 安吉利斯市 洪(红)奚礼斯市
Antipolo City (4) 安蒂波洛市 安智波洛市
Antique Province (6) 安蒂克省 安智计省
Aparri (2) 阿巴里 亚巴里
Apayao Province (CAR) 阿巴耀省 亚巴耀省
Apo Mountain 阿坡山 亚坡山
Argao (7) 阿篙 亚尔肴
Aurora Province (4) 欧罗拉省 欧罗拉省
Aurora (2) 欧罗拉 欧罗拉
Autonomous Region in Muslin Mindanao 穆斯林棉兰佬自治区
B
Bacolod City (6) 巴哥洛市 描戈(科)律市
Bago City (6) 巴戈市 描戈市
Baguio City (CAR) 碧瑶市 碧瑶市
Bais City (7) 巴依斯市 描易斯市(描意示)
Balanga (3) 巴兰嘎 描笼牙
Baler (4) 巴勒尔 描礼
Balicuatro (8) 巴里瓜托 茉莉跨岛
Ballesteros (2) 巴里斯特洛斯 描礼示地洛示
Banaue (CAR) 巴那威 描拉威
Bangued (CAR) 班格特 芒威
Bantayan Island (7) 班达雁岛 万达鄢
Barangay 巴笼盖 描笼涯
Basco (2) 巴斯科 描示戈
Basilan Province (9) 巴西兰省 描丝兰省
Bataan Province (3) 巴达安省(巴丹) 描沓安省
Batanes Province (2) 巴塔内斯省 巴丹礼示省(描丹尼示)
Batangas City (4) 八打雁(嘎斯)市 描东岸市
Batangas Province (4) 八打嘎斯省 描东岸省
Baybay (8) 拜拜 眉眉
Bayombong (2) 拜涌崩 描杨芒
Benguet Province (CAR) 本格特省 敏讫省
Bicol Region (5) 比科尔区 米(美)骨区
Biliran Island (8) 比利兰岛 米里兰岛
Biliran Province (8) 比利兰省 米里兰省
Boac (4) 波奥 务渥
Bohol Island (7) 保和岛 武运岛
Bohol Province (7) 保和省 武运(忽)省
Bonggao (ARMM) 崩高 望肴
Bontoc (CAR) 崩托 文笃
Boracay Island (6) 波拉盖岛 务拉凯岛
Borongan (8) 保荣干 武朗岸
Bukidnon Province (10) 布基农省 武基(纪)伦省
Bulacan Province (3) 布拉干省 武六干省
Bulan (5) 布兰 武兰
Butuan City (13) 武端市 武(雾)端市
C
Cabanatuan City (3) 卡巴纳端市 加描(万)那端市
Cabalian ( ) 卡巴里安 加描利安
Cabarroguis (2) 卡巴让格斯 加描罗义士
Cabatuan (2) 卡巴杜安 加描端
Cadiz City (6) 卡蒂斯市 加礼示市
Cagayan De Oro City (10) 卡加颜德奥罗市 加牙鄢黎奥市
Cagayan Province (2) 卡加颜省 加牙渊(鄢)省
CagayanValley Region (2) 卡加颜河谷区(第2区)
Calapan City (4) 卡拉班市 加拉班(坂)市
Calbayog City (8) 卡尔巴约格市 甲描育市
Callao Caves (2) 卡佬洞 加佬洞
Calubian (8) 卡鲁比安 加路米安
Camarines Norte Province (5) 北甘马磷(尼斯)省 北甘马仁省
Camarines Sur Province (5) 南甘马磷(尼斯)省 南甘马仁省
Camiguin Province (10) 卡米京省 甘美坚(迎)省
Camiling (3) 卡米泠 甘未泠
Camotes (7) 卡莫地斯 加莫得示
Candelaria(4) 坎地拉里亚 干例拉惹
Canlaon City (7) 坎拉翁市 干拉旺市
Capiz Province (6) 卡皮斯省 加帛示省
Caraga Region (13) 卡拉加区 加拉牙区
Catanduanes Province (5) 卡坦端内斯省 葛丹恋尼(示)省
Catarman (8) 卡它曼 加胆(达)万
Catbalogan (8) 卡布洛干 甲描朗(弄)岸
Cawayan (2) 卡洼颜 郊亚鄢
Cavite City (4) 甲美地市 加未地市
Cavite Province (4) 甲美地省 加未地省
Cebu City (7) 宿务市 宿务市
Cebu Island (7) 宿务岛 宿务岛
Cebu Province (7) 宿务省 宿务省
Central Luzon Region (3) 中吕宋区
Central Mindanao Region (12) 中棉兰佬区
Central Visayas Region (7) 中维萨亚区 中未狮牙区
Chocolate Hills (7) 巧克力山 巧克力山
Clak (3) 克拉克 克拉克
Compostela (11) 康坡斯特拉 康播示蒂拉
Compostela Valley Province(11) 康坡斯特拉山谷省 康播示蒂拉省
Cordillera Autonomous Region (CAR)山脉区 山顶区
Corregidor (MM) 格律希岛 格律希岛
Cotabato City (ARMM) 哥打巴托市 古达描岛市
Currimao (1) 古里茂 古里茂
D
Dadiangas ( ) 达将戈斯 将军市
Daet (5) 达伊特 纳乙
Dagupan City (1) 达古潘市 拉牛坂市
Dalisay City (6) 达里塞市 沓里塞市
Danao City (7) 达垴市 兰佬市
Dapitan City (9) 达比丹市 拉必丹市
Davao City (11) 达沃市 纳卯市
Davao Del Norte Province(11) 北达沃省 北纳卯省
Davao Del Sur Province (11) 南达沃省 南纳卯省
Davao Oriental Province (11) 东达沃省 东纳卯省
Digos (11) 迪沟斯 里敖示
Dipolog City (9) 第波罗市 利宝洛(里保禄)市
Dumaguete City (7) 杜马格特市 浪漫艺(朗吗倪)地市
E
Eastern Samar Province (8) 东萨马省 东三描省
Eastern Visayas Region (8) 东维萨亚区
Echaque (2) 伊壳基 者艺
Escalante (6) 伊斯卡兰特 依示加兰地
Estancia ( ) 伊斯坦西亚 伊示陈西亚
F
For Pilar (9) 佛皮拉 佛皮拉尔
G
General Santos City (11) 桑托斯将军市 仙道斯(示)将军市
Gingoog City (10) 欣俄奥格市 兴旺(福)市
Guagua (3) 瓜瓜 瓦瓦
Guiuan (8) 秋万 艺苑
Guimaras Province (6) 基马拉斯省 义马拉斯省
H
Hilongos (8) 黑浪沟斯 喜朗虞示
Hundred Islands (1) 百岛 百岛
I
Iba (3) 伊巴 依描
Ifugao Province (CAR) 伊富高省 伊富爻省
Ilagan City (2) 伊拉干市 依拉甘(岸)市
Iligan City (12) 伊利甘市 依里岸市
Ilocos Norte Province (1) 北伊洛戈斯省 北怡罗戈(洛)省
Ilocos Region (1) 伊罗(洛)戈斯区 怡罗戈区
Ilocos Sur Province (1) 南伊洛戈斯省 南怡罗戈省
Iloilo City (6) 伊洛伊洛市 怡朗市
Iloilo Province (6) 伊洛伊洛省 怡朗省
Intramuros (MM) 西班牙王城 西班牙王城
Iriga City (5) 伊里加市 依里牙市
Isabel (8) 伊沙贝尔 依沙未
Isabela De Basilan (9) 伊沙贝拉地巴斯兰 怡沙未拉黎描丝兰
Isabela Province (2) 伊萨贝拉省 怡沙迷拉省
Island Garden City (11) 岛花园市 岛花园市
Isulan (11) 伊苏兰 依树兰
J
Jagna (8) 哈那 哈那
Jolo (ARMM) 瑚洛 贺洛
Jordan (6) 焦丹 召兰
K
Kabankalan City (6) 卡班卡兰市 加班加兰市
Kabugao (CAR) 卡布高 甲务爻
Kalibo (6) 卡里布 加里(利)务
Kalinga Province (CAR) 卡林嘎省 加仁(凌)牙省
Kaloocan City (MM) 卡洛奥坎市 加洛干市
Kidapawan City (12) 基塔巴湾市 基沓巴湾市
Koronadal (11) 科嵘纳塔 戈伦那达
L
La Carlota City (6) 拉卡洛塔市 拉卡罗沓市
Lagawe (CAR) 拉嘎维 拉牙威
Laguna Province (4) 内湖(拉故那)省 内湖省
Lanao ( ) 拉瑙 兰佬
Lanao Del Norte Province (12) 北拉瑙省 北兰佬省
Lanao Del Sur Province(ARMM) 南拉瑙省 南兰佬省
Lanao Lake (ARMM) 拉瑙湖 兰佬湖
Laoang (8) 佬旺 佬旺
Laoag City (1) 拉奥格市 佬渥市
Lapu- lapu City (7) 拉普拉普市 拉布拉布市
Larena ( ) 拉利那 拉仁那
Las Pinas City (MM) 拉斯彬迎斯市 拉斯彬迎西市
Lasam ( ) 拉杉 拉杉
La Trinidad (CAR) 拉特利尼塔 拉地尼叻
La Union Province (1) 拉乌尼翁省 拉允隆省
Legaspi City (5) 莱加斯皮市 黎加(牙)实备市
Leyte Island (8) 莱特岛 礼智岛
Leyte Province (8) 莱特省 礼智省
Leyte-Samar (8) 礼三
Lingayen (1) 林嘎彦 凌牙渊
Lipa City (4) 里帕市 里巴市
Liloan (7) 里洛安 里洛安
Loon (7) 洛昂 露温
Lucena City (4) 卢塞纳市 罗申那市
Luzon Island 吕宋岛 吕宋岛
M
Maasin (8) 麻森 马亚信
Mac Arthur Park (8) 麦克阿瑟公园 麦克阿瑟公园
Mactan Island (7) 麦丹岛 墨丹岛
Maganoy (ARMM) 马嘎瑙伊 马牙倪
Magat (2) 马嘎特 吗艾
Maguindanao Province(ARMM) 马京达瑙省 马银兰佬省
Makati City (MM) 马卡蒂市 马加智市
Malabon (MM) 马拉翁 马拉门(汶)
Malacanang Palace (MM) 马拉干南宫 马拉干鄢(菲总统府)
Malaybalay City (10) 马莱巴莱市 马莱巴(描)莱市
Malolos (3) 马洛洛斯 马洛洛示
Mambajao (10) 曼巴蒿 万描肴
Mamburao (4) 曼布佬 万武佬
Mandaluyong City (MM) 曼达卢永市 曼拉俞央市
Mandaue City (7) 曼达维市 曼那(达)威市
Manila City (MM) 马尼拉市 岷尼(里)拉市
Marawi City (ARMM) 马拉威市 马拉威市
Marikina City (MM) 马里基纳市 马利仅那市
Marinduque Province (4) 马林杜克省 马仁愈计省
Masbate (5) 马斯巴地 描实马地
Masbate Province (5) 马斯巴地省 马实描地省
Mati (11) 马堤 马智
Mayon Volcano (5) 马涌火山 马容火山
Metro Manila (NCR) 大马尼拉 大岷尼拉
Mindanao Island 棉兰佬岛 棉兰佬岛
Mindoro Island (4) 民都洛岛 岷多(洛)洛岛
Misamis Occidental Province(10)西米萨米斯省 西棉三美示省
Misamis Oriental Province (10) 东米萨米斯省 东棉三美示省
Mountain Province (CAR) 高山省 高山省
Muntinlupa City (MM) 蒙廷卢帕市 文珍俞巴市
N
Naga City (5) 纳加市 那牙(加)市
Nasipit (13) 纳西比 那斯毕
Naval (8) 纳洼 那描
Navotas (MM) 纳沃塔斯 那莫沓斯
Negros Island 内格罗斯 黑人岛
Negros Occidental Province (6) 西内格罗斯省 西黑人省
Negros Oriental Province (7) 东内格罗斯省 东黑人省
North Cotabato Province (12) 北哥达巴托省 北古达描岛省
North Harbor (MM) 北码头 北码头
Northern Mindanao Region(10) 北棉兰佬区(第10区)
Northern Samar Province (8) 北萨马省 北三描省
Nueva Ecija Province (3) 新怡诗夏省 蕊描依丝哈省
Nueva Vizcaya Province (2) 新维斯盖亚省 新美实该耶省
O
Occidental Mindoro Province(4) 西民都洛省 西岷多(洛)洛省
Olongapo City (3) 奥隆嘎(阿)波市 荷浪牙波市
Oriental Mindoro Province (4) 东民都洛省 东岷多(洛)洛省
Ormoc City (8) 奥莫克市 旺木市
Oroquieta City (10) 奥罗基塔市 奥洛计沓市(荷罗基沓)
Ozamis City (10) 奥萨米斯市 荷杉弥(棉)示市
P
Pagadian City (9) 帕嘎蒂安市 巴牙里安市(巴加连)
Pagsanjan Falls (4) 百胜滩 百胜滩(山)
Palawan Province (4) 巴拉望省 巴佬湾省
Palayan City (3) 巴拉颜市 巴拉鄢市
Palompon (8) 帕隆澎 巴伦本
Pampanga Province (3) 邦板牙省 邦邦牙省
Pangasinan Province (1) 邦嘎锡南省(班诗兰) 蜂牙(雅)丝兰省
Pannay Island (6) 班奈岛 班乃岛
Paranaque City (MM) 帕拉尼亚克市 巴兰玉(迎)计市
Pasay City (MM) 巴萨伊市 巴西市
Pasig (4) 巴石 巴石
Pasig City (MM) 巴石市 巴石市
Pateros (MM) 帕特罗斯 巴蒂罗斯(巴地洛示)
Passi City (6) 巴斯市 巴斯市
pili (5) 皮里 比里
Pinamalayan (4) 皮纳玛拉鄢 彬那玛拉鄢
Pinatubo Mountain 皮纳杜布山 彬那杜务山
Placer ( ) 皮拉瑟尔 柏那斯
Plaridel (7) 皮拉利地 柏那利黎
Prosperidad (13) 皮柔斯佩里塔 布示备黎叨
Puerto Princesa City (4) 普林塞萨港市 公主港市
Q
Quezon City (MM) 奎松市 计顺市
Quezon Province (4) 奎松省 计顺省
Quirino Province (2) 奎里诺省 基仁诺省
R
Rizal Province (4) 里萨尔省 黎刹省
Romblon (4) 朗布隆 伦朗
Romblon Province (4) 朗布隆省 伦朗省
Roxas City (6) 罗哈斯市 罗哈示(斯)市
Rosales (1) 罗沙礼示 罗沙礼示
S
Sagay City (6) 沙该市 沙该市
Samal Island (11) 沙马岛 沙马岛
Samar Island (8) 萨马岛 三描岛
San Carlos City (6) 圣卡洛斯市(内格罗斯)仙加洛(罗)示市
San Carlos City (1) 圣卡洛斯市(邦嘎锡南)仙加洛(罗)示市
San Fernando (3) 汕佛南坨 仙彬兰洛
San Fernando City (1) 汕佛南坨市 仙彬兰洛市
San Jose City (3) 汕荷塞市 仙扶西市
San Jose de Buenavista (6) 汕荷塞地布伊那维斯塔仙扶西黎梅未赛沓
San Juan (MM) 圣胡安 仙范
San Pablo City (4) 圣巴勃罗市 仙答洛市
Santa Cruz (4) 汕塔古如兹 仙沓古律示
Santiago City (2) 汕堤亚高市 仙朝峨(爹戈)市
Sarangani Province (11) 沙冉嘎尼省 沙兰彦尼省(沙笼牙尼)
Silay City (6) 锡莱市 诗莱市
Sindangan (8) 辛丹杆 新笼岸
Siquijor (7) 锡基霍尔 诗义贺(丝基贺)
Siquijor Province (7) 锡基霍尔省 诗义贺省
Sorsogon (5) 索索贡 殊殊银(汶)
Sorsogon Province (5) 索索贡省 殊殊银省
South Cotabato Province (11) 南哥达巴托省 南古达描岛省
Southern Mindanao (11) 南棉兰佬区
Southern Leyte Province (8) 南莱特省 南礼智省
Southern Tagalog Region (4) 南他加禄区
San ta. Fe (7) 汕塔斐 圣大飞
Subic Bay (3) 苏比克湾 苏毕(密)湾
Sultan Kudarat Province (11) 苏丹库达拉省 苏丹古沓叻省
Sulu Province (ARMM) 苏禄省 苏禄(洛)省
Surigao City (13) 苏里高市 殊里高(树里爻)市
Surigao Del Norte Province(13) 北苏里高省 北殊里高省
Surigao Del Sur Province (13) 南苏里高省 南殊里高省
Surigao Island (13) 苏里高岛 苏里高岛
T
Taal (4) 塔阿 沓亚
Tabaco (5) 塔巴戈 谈描戈
Tabuk (CAR) 塔布克 沓莫
Tacloban City (8) 塔克洛班市 独鲁万市
Tacurong (11) 塔古隆 沓古朗
Tagaytay City (4) 塔盖泰市 大雅台市
Tagbilaran City (7) 塔比拉兰市 沓比(未)拉兰市
Tago (13) 塔戈 沓敖
Taguig (MM) 塔吉格 达义
Tagum City (11) 塔贡市 达昂市
Tandag (13) 坦达 丹辘
Tangub City (10) 丹古市 丹虞市
Tarlac City (3) 打拉市 丹辘市
Tarlac Province (3) 打拉省 丹辘省
Tayug (1) 打涌 岱育
Tawi-Tawi Province (ARMM) 塔威-塔威省 沓(斗)威沓威省
Toledo City (7) 托莱多市 杜礼洛(道)市
Trece Martirez City (4) 特莱塞马蒂莱斯市 三烈士市(第马第礼示)
Tuao (2) 杜坳 株后
Tubigon (7) 杜比贡 株密银
Tuburan (7) 杜布兰 株务蓝
Tubad ( ) 杜巴地 株密
Tuguegarao (2) 土格嘎佬 殊(朱)艺芽佬(杜义牙佬)
U
Urdaneta City (1) 乌坦尼塔市 乌丹尼沓市
V
Valenzuela (MM) 瓦伦瑞拉 描仁瑞拉
Victorias City (6) 维克多利亚斯市 维多利亚市
Vigan (1) 维甘 美岸
Virac (5) 维拉 米辘(咪六)
Visayas 维萨亚 未狮耶
W
Western Mindanao Region (9) 西棉兰佬区
Western Samar Province (8) 西萨马省 西三描省
Western Visayas Region (6) 西维萨亚区(比萨扬)
Z
Zambales Province (3) 三描礼示省 三描礼示省
Zamboanga City (9) 三宝颜市 三宝颜市
Zamboanga Del Norte Province(9) 北三宝颜省 北三宝颜省
Zamboanga Del Sur Province (9) 南三宝颜省 南三宝颜省
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by amhoanna » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:08 am

I was reading about the island of Jolo in the Asia Times today. One folk etymology for "Jolo" goes like this:
There is actually no record how Jolo got its name but a tale that was passed from generation to generation states that Jolo came from the “Ho Lang” which means good people. It was said that Chinese traders who frequent the area were pleased by the natives’ excellent attributes and honesty and called the place Ho Lang, later on the name was shortened to ho-lo which means good place.
http://www.paraisophilippines.com/categ ... nces/jolo/

Ho2-loh8? My Holo-sense says no, but who knows. One Joloano I knew told me that there were lots of Hoklos on Jolo, at least back in the day. They got along great with the Suluks in both love and war——war against the Spanish. So, Sulu is like Aceh, except the Bumi and the Tnglang got together. :lol:
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by SimL » Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:56 am

Hi amhoanna,

I remember Henning Kloeter asking a question about Ho(k)lo on this Forum a long time ago, and nobody knew the answer. As you're a super-knowledgable person who has joined since, I take the liberty to ask the question again (paraphrased, as I can't find the original question, and perhaps even not completely correctly remembered...).

"Does anybody know why 'Hoklo' is pronounced 'Holo' ? I.e. what happened to the -k?"

While we're at it, what are the TLJ for "Hoklo" / what is its etymology?
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by amhoanna » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:27 am

Hi, SimL.

There's the 河洛 theory, a.k.a. the "Wrong" Theory. It's the most popular theory on the street in TW. I think this points right to the heart of why the concept of Tâi'oân to̍kli̍p hasn't caught on in Taiwan!

There's the 鶴佬 / 學佬 theory, which is not a theory, but just a way to write the name using kanji.

There's the 福佬 theory, which makes sense. The Hakkas needed to call the Hoklos something, so they called them 福佬, but with an imitation Hoklo 福, i.e. "hok", instead of a Hakka "fuk". Kind of like how in some places west of Macau, Hakkas are called Makkai people or Ngai people. Lîm Kiànhui, who's from Ciangciu, points out that the term only exists in places where there's lots of Hakkas nearby. This is the one theory where the "-k" question crops up, though. I think it kind of undermines the theory. With any other theory, we can ask whether the -k was really ever there. The tones are a question mark too. Any Hakka speakers care to shed light?

Lâu Sênghiân, who's studying at Leiden now, banged out a 号佬 theory on Tâigíbāng a few years ago. I'm going to paste it onto the open web right below, just now. The gist of it is that the Hakkas called the Hoklos "号佬" b/c they were already taking up all the good land. :lol:

All I have to add to this mess is the "hoannogenesis" theory. Once upon a time, there was a non-Han group called the Hoklau or something like that. They lived in and around what is today Ciangciu. Later, they sinicized en masse and became the "Hokkiens", with a "Ha̍kláu" splinter group in Háihong-Soàⁿboé.

Exhibit A: If the TWese term "Ho̍hló" and the Soàⁿboé term "Ha̍kláu" are cognate, then there could be a good amount of time-depth, poss. taking us back to when much of Ciangciu was non-Han.

Exhibit B: Groups in the area include the Hakka, the Ha (the 畲; I think they call themselves something along these lines, although they mostly speak Hakka), the Hōló / Ho̍hló, and the Ha̍kláu. Hmm... Yes! Hmong. And Hlai. :mrgreen:

* BTW, do a lot of people in M'sia/Sg/Sumatra know the word Ho̍hló? I remember using it one time in Melaka or Api and one Hokkien guy said it sounded familiar.
Last edited by amhoanna on Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by amhoanna » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:31 am

Ta̍k-ê gâu 早:

我無學過漢語聲韻學 kap 文字學,所以無才調進一步
究勘洪老師 ê 考證,總--是我有問客人 ê 朋友,對洪
老師所主張 ê 本字「貉獠」,個人感覺 iáu 有討論 ê
空間。

理由 1:咱 lóng 知影漢字 tī 以早是貴族 ê ke-si,一般
    百姓人真少人 bat,uì tsit-ê 理路來想,beh
    講普通人(1 tīn 客人)ē thiau 意故 koh 有影
    hōo in tshiau 著「貉」、「獠」tsit 兩 ê 夭壽
    oh 寫 koh 罕用 ê 漢字來稱呼另外 1 ê 語族,
    tse kám 有可能? Ta̍k-ê kám bē 感覺奇怪?

    當然有人 ē 主張,ińg-pái 民間 mā 有漢 o̍h-á
kap 漢字 á sian ē-hiáu tshuē 漢字來 tàu,若
    準 tsit-ê 講法有理,按呢 tsit 兩字出 tī hit-tang
-tsūn 智識階層 ê 名號,應該 ē 留 tī 文獻內底
    ,總--是根據稽考(吳守禮先生 bat 為 tse 去
    píng 過台灣、福建 ê 民間 kap 官方文獻),
    根本 tshuē 無有 tī-tāi ê 記載,咱若 uì tsit-ê 角
    度來看,beh 講 Holo ê 本字是足有「學問」ê
「貉獠」,想--起-來有影足怪奇--ê。


理由 2:若列位有熟 sāi 客人朋友,thang 斟酌問 in 客語
    Holo ê 呼音,koh 另外請教 in「福」--字 tī 客語
    ê 呼音,透過 tsit-ê 簡單 ê 比較,咱 thang 知 beh
講 Holo tsit-ê 詞出 tī 客語 ê「福佬」iah「學佬」,
    lóng 是真勉強 ê 講法;當然,mā 有學者主張 tse
是尾--a 產生 ê 音變,tsit-ê 講法若有理,咱 suah
tio̍h suî 處理 1 ê 問題:「客人 tī 中國、台灣等所
    在 khiā 起 ê 所在 hiah 分散 koh hiah-ni̍h 闊,nah
ē lóng 總發生 sio-siâng ê 音變?Nah ē 真 oh tshuē
有人保留『福佬』或者是『學佬』ê 呼音?『福』字
    客語讀『fuk』,kap『ho』是天差 leh 地,beh 按
    怎有可能發生普遍的 tī 客人中間一致性 ê 音變?」


我一直真 giâu 疑客語講 ê「Hóo-lóo」根本就是「號佬」,tsit
ê 講法,是 tú-tú 好 kap 「客人」 sio 對應--ê,siáⁿ-mih 是「號
」? Khah 大本 ê 客語字典 lóng 有解 sueh,「號」tī 客語做動
詞 ê 時,就是「佔 tiâu」ê 意思。

比論:咱若做伙去看戲,我想 beh 先去便所,就 ē kā tàu 陣來
ê 朋友講:「位 e 號--leh!」意思是:「kā 位佔 tiâu--leh!」

客人遷 suá 來 tī 1 ê 新 ê 地頭,hōo 人叫做「客人」(當然客人
ê 定義古早 kah taⁿ mā 有變化--過,請參考台灣方志 ê 記錄 kap
相關 ê 論文),in 自按呢 kā 已經 tī 在地生活 ê hit 陣人叫做
「號佬」(kā 所在佔 tiâu--leh ê 人),想--起-來是真自然 ê 代誌
,呼音、意思完全 hù 合,koh 是民間 ê 白話,無用著一般民間人
bē-hiáu ê 困難漢字。

上尾講「佬」--字,有人講「佬」--字有歧視 ê 意思,若是講廣東
話是按呢,我贊成,若講客語 mā 是按呢,我認為 ài 看用 ê 所在
,「佬」當然有 i 歧視 ê 用法,m̄-koh tse 並 m̄ 是固定--ê,比論:
「丈人佬」(台語講「丈人 pâ」),tse 真明顯無 siáⁿ-mih 歧視
ê 意思 tī 內底。

講 tsiah 濟,lóng kan-taⁿ 是我幾 ā 月日前因為 hòoⁿ-hiân 做 tsi̍t-
kuá 初步研究 ê m̄-tsiâⁿ 結果,一來二去,我猶原欠缺考本字 ê 漢
字學問智識,koh mā 無興趣 beh 去學,所以看--起-來是無可能 tsiū
tsit-ê 題目寫出 1 篇論文--a,taⁿ 看著 A 天兄 kap 允言老師 ê 討論
,tú 好 the̍h 出來 liū,hōo ta̍k-ê bóng 參考。
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by SimL » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:46 am

Hi Amhoanna,

Thanks. I'll let Henning know about your inputs. There's still no hope that I could handle the TLJ article without 12-16 hours of solid work (EVEN a ***HOKKIEN*** TLJ article), so for the moment, I'll have to forgo the valuable information in it, but perhaps Henning will find it interesting reading.

SimL
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by niuc » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:18 pm

amhoanna wrote: * BTW, do a lot of people in M'sia/Sg/Sumatra know the word Ho̍hló? I remember using it one time in Melaka or Api and one Hokkien guy said it sounded familiar.
Amhoanna, where is Api? I never heard or knew about Ho̍hló/Hoklo until I found the term in Taiwanese websites. Actually I never knew the term "Minnan"/"Banlam" either, until I learned it in Mandarin. And initially I found it hard to believe that "Min" is "Ban" (and not "Bin") in Hokkien! So far I don't remember of any "-in" in Mandarin link to "-an" in Hokkien, unlike Cantonese.
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by SimL » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:56 pm

niuc wrote:
amhoanna wrote: * BTW, do a lot of people in M'sia/Sg/Sumatra know the word Ho̍hló? I remember using it one time in Melaka or Api and one Hokkien guy said it sounded familiar.
... I never heard or knew about Ho̍hló/Hoklo until I found the term in Taiwanese websites. Actually I never knew the term "Minnan"/"Banlam" either, until I learned it in Mandarin. ...
I too had never heard of either term until well past the age of 30 (i.e. in the 1990's). "Minnan" I learnt about from reading linguistics books (in English, obviously) about Hokkien and Taiwanese, and "hoklo" only from this Forum and one or two references in some books.
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by xng » Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:34 am

niuc wrote:
amhoanna wrote: websites. Actually I never knew the term "Minnan"/"Banlam" either, until I learned it in Mandarin. And initially I found it hard to believe that "Min" is "Ban" (and not "Bin") in Hokkien! So far I don't remember of any "-in" in Mandarin link to "-an" in Hokkien, unlike Cantonese.
Yes, it is indeed unique but ...
I read somewhere that the character 閩 actually originated from the word 蠻 'Man' which was used to describe the natives of Fujian province before the Han Chinese migrated there. So that province was originally inhabited by 'savages'. :lol: That explains why it is pronounced as 'Ban/Man' instead of 'Min'.
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by amhoanna » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:29 am

Api = Kota Kinabalu. The city is formally called 亜庇 in Chinese, but I'm guessing more people call it "KK".

Sorry about the hanji, Sim. Mainly what the guy did was look at this whole thing from a Hakkophone perspective, since he speaks some Hakka as a 4th or 5th language. In Hakka, "ho11 lo52" couldn't possibly have anything to do with 福, but it could have something to do with a Hakka verb "ho" that means to take up space/resources/etc. And lo52 would still be 佬.

Lâu Sênghiân wrote this around 2007, give or take a year. A few yrs earlier than that and it would've been written in pure pe̍h'oējī. The mailing list standard for the longest time was this kind of low-tech pe̍h'oējī that had no tone markers, ou instead of open o, etc. It was kind of "controversial" when members started posting in hanlo (tnglangji + angmoji). Some of the elders thought it was wrong. Then Sênghiân "slammed" them with long posts in pure POJ, and most of them couldn't keep up b/c they were Chinese-educated... Their minds were built to process hanji. At that pt I looked back and was like, oh, so that's why nobody ever responded to my long posts (in POJ). :lol:
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by SimL » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:59 am

amhoanna wrote:... Sorry about the hanji, Sim. Mainly what the guy did was look at this whole thing from a Hakkophone perspective, since he speaks some Hakka as a 4th or 5th language. In Hakka, "ho11 lo52" couldn't possibly have anything to do with 福, but it could have something to do with a Hakka verb "ho" that means to take up space/resources/etc. And lo52 would still be 佬. ...
Hi amhoanna,

Oh, please don't apologize! It was more an admission of my own failings, than a reproach to either the original writer or to you for reposting... :P. Very interesting, thanks for the summary of the content. There's so much more going on "out there" that I don't know about. Thanks for bringing it to the attention of the members of this Forum.
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by amhoanna » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:47 am

Huili̍ppin is an incredibly interesting place for Hoklology. Stepped into a National Bookstore today and saw two books of the "learn Chinese, Filipino and English" variety, one by Johnny Young entitled KEEPING UP WITH YOUR CHINESE + FILIPINO, Vol. 2, or something like that, another by John Wangli entitled either SPEAK CHINESE-FILIPINO-ENGLISH THE FASTEST AND EASIEST WAY or PRACTICAL GUIDE TO CHINESE-FILIPINO-ENGLISH CONVERSATION. I'd seen the Young book before, or was that vol. 1? The Wangli book comes with a CD. Now the interesting thing is that both books had three columns for "Chinese", one for kanji, one for romanized Mandarin and one for romanized Hokkien. The romanizations are pretty bad, but 95% of the time I could make out what was going on. Now here's what was interesting:

1. The Hokkien was very pure, w/ little or no input from Mandarin.
2. The Mandarin was bookish, maybe better described as Modern Std Chinese, not quite the free-wheeling, "Northern" Mandarin that serves as a standard now.
3. The Hokkien seemed a tad bit formal or bookish too, at least Young's was.
4. Young's hanji actually seemed to key off his Hokkien, while his Mandarin keyed off his hanji.
5. Young's book covered all manner of topics relating to business and industry. Clearly, to Tsinoys (Phils Tn̂glâng), Hokkien is a language that covers everything, not just outdated or in-home topics.
6. A great number of Young's terminology was at odds with most modern Sino languages, inc. TWese Hoklo as it's spoken now. Meanwhile, his "Mandarin" was in line with his Hokkien as often as not.

It's like they're speaking early 20th century Hokkien, evolved to meet the demands of the days we live in. It's like they never got the memo on the use of Modern Std Chinese and how words would be coined in the future. Actually we can also observe that most Tsinoys simply don't "see" Hokkien and Std Chinese as different languages. To them, the two languages are almost like what colloquial and newscast Cantonese are to Cantophones. But b/c their "linguistic psychology" dates back a lot farther than that of other Hoklo-speaking communities ... they also don't see Hokkien as being somehow subordinate...

I'm tempted to buy the books, esp. the one with the recording. But it's the last thing a digital nomad like me needs.
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by Ah-bin » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:07 pm

I'm tempted to buy the books, esp. the one with the recording. But it's the last thing a digital nomad like me needs.
I wish you did...they sound incredibly useful and are impossible to order online, even through the National Bookstore Website....
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by amhoanna » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:32 pm

Lí kóng liáu ū lí! I think I'll get the one that has the recording, when I make my way back to Manila.

I found Vol. 1 of the Johnny Young books up in Vigan yesterday. I had a long look through that one. There's another author named Betty Lee, I've seen three of her books on Hokkien in the bookstores. One of them refers to Hokkien as "Hokyanwe" in the title, soah m̄ cai it always rides solo between Hebrew and Italian on the shelves, while the other books on Hokkien ride in the "Chinese" section. Anyway, the Young books are interesting, but there's no recording, and the romanizations are inconsistent. He tries to spell everything so that you could read it as if it were English, but he supplements it with tone marks (numbers) where he feels it's necessary. Then there's typos on top of that. I can figure out most of the book fine b/c of what I know from other kinds of Hoklo, but when he gets to words that differ from Taiwan/Amoy/Penang, then I'm in the dark. And arguably those are the most interesting words.

It occurred to me that I or we could contact Johnny Young directly for future projects. I bet he's knowledgeable and genuinely interested. M̄ koh unlike Ongmeister of Penang podcast fame, i sī ahboē se̍ksāi Aute'aló·'ā hit ê gíbûn coanka nātiāⁿ--lah.

Betty Lee's romanizations are a bit more systematic, but her lexicon "skews Mandarin" something fierce. She has a couple of primers out and a wordlist/dictionary. The wordlist is chock full of Mandarin words in Hoklo garb. Benar berani!

aPin, lí nā beh'ài, goá ēsái kā lí tàu bé ciah'ê che·h liáu'āu sûi kià hō·--lí, ū êng lí ciahkoh iōng Paypal ahsī Swift hêng goá lui. The Young books are PHP 370 apiece, the Lee books are in the 150-250 range. Phils being the kind of place it is, reliable postage may cost more than it would in the Commonwealth. Nā ū beh'ài, lépài àm kóng hō· goá cai tō hó.

Last note, the words and structures used in these Pinoy Hoklo books totally resemble how the kid and his mother (from the Amoy flight) talked. I wonder if this is b/c she came from the same linguistic zone as the original "Lūsòng khe·h" 呂宋客 -- are 南安 and 晉江 "like that"? Or if it's b/c she adjusted her Hoklo to Binondo. After all, she spoke fluent Tagalog. That impressed me endlessly.

The one badass word the kid used that stuck in my mind was "tâⁿ" for WRONG. He was practicing writing hanji. He would write a hanji, then say "tâⁿ, tâⁿ" and erase it while his mother would say "bô tâⁿ! bô tâⁿ lah!" We use "tâⁿ" in TW as in têngtâⁿ, but m̄ tio̍h seems more common in these contexts; and in Soàⁿboé and Chonglâm they might just say "chò, chò".
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Re: Huili̍ppin place names, Hoklo- and Mando-based sinicizat

Post by niuc » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:38 pm

amhoanna wrote: The one badass word the kid used that stuck in my mind was "tâⁿ" for WRONG. He was practicing writing hanji. He would write a hanji, then say "tâⁿ, tâⁿ" and erase it while his mother would say "bô tâⁿ! bô tâⁿ lah!" We use "tâⁿ" in TW as in têngtâⁿ, but m̄ tio̍h seems more common in these contexts; and in Soàⁿboé and Chonglâm they might just say "chò, chò".
My variant usually use "m̄-tio̍h", while "chò" is (only) used in "literary context". We use tâⁿ to mean wrong in the sense of blurred or mixed up. Bàk-ciu (khuà-lòh) tâⁿ-tâⁿ = (My) eyes' vision is blurred / not clear. Khuà/Thiaⁿ-tâⁿ is a subset of khuà/thiaⁿ-m̄-tiòh, implying that there was some distraction/noise.
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