Mandarin in Mandarin

[eng wai]

What is the word for Mandarin in Chinese?

[Eng Wai]

No one knows the Mandarin word for Mandarin? I thought that there are quite a couple of people in this forum intending to teach foreigner Mandarin!

[Dylan Sung]

Mandarin, or the national language is usually called the 'common language' or putonghua, in China, but national language guoyu in Taiwan. In HK, the latter was used until the mid to late eighties. Now everyone calls it putonghua.

Dyl.

[Eng Wai]

I know the term pu3 tong1 hua4, guo2 yu which literally mean common language and national language respectively.

But this term is coined after mandarin is enforced as the "common language" or "national language" in China. How about before that?

I might suggest Jin1, but again it is called jin1 because it was the language of the capital. Is there any general term for the language which doen't change with regard to political changes?

I would like to know the origin of the english wrod "mandarin" too.

Eng Wai

[%sig%]

[Dylan Sung]

guan hua? The language of the officials? Is that what you mean?

Have a look at one of my older messages on usenet

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci ... ode=source

Dyl.

[Eng Wai]

I think I don't have a good undestanding of the history of Mandarin. Could I ask you to answer some of my questions?

i) When did mandarin become established as a consistent spoken language?

ii) If it was formed before it became the guan1 hua4/jing1 hua4, then what was it called?

The mandarin I mean here is the language group widely spoken by northern (bei jing, ji lin etc), western (wei wu er, dungan? etc), central (he nan etc) Chinese, not the common tongue. A Bei Jing person cuold speak fluent and native mandarin but a wayward Pu Tong Hua.

I hope you can understand and please correct me if I get anything wrong.

Eng Wai

[%sig%]

[Language learner]

Eng Wai wrote:

>i) When did mandarin become established as a consistent spoken language?

After the collapse of the Ching (Qing) dynasty and the establishment of the Republic of China in 1912. During the first number of years of the R.O.C, there were discussion of forming a 'national language' or 'guo2 yu3'. A proposal of a number dialects including Cantonese were proposed to Dr. Sun Yat Sen and finally adopted Mandarin.
Mandarin Chinese definition: Northern Chinese as the foundation with Beijing pronunciation as the standard (I will write more next time on this)

>ii) If it was formed before it became the guan1 hua4/jing1 hua4, then what was it called?

It was just called 'guan1 hua4' depending on where the capitals were !

[Eng Wai]

To Language Learner,

I am talking about Mandarin, not Pu Tong Hua (common language)

"After the collapse of the Ching (Qing) dynasty and the establishment of the Republic of China in 1912. During the first number of years of the R.O.C, there were discussion of forming a 'national language' or 'guo2 yu3'. A proposal of a number dialects including Cantonese were proposed to Dr. Sun Yat Sen and finally adopted Mandarin.
Mandarin Chinese definition: Northern Chinese as the foundation with Beijing pronunciation as the standard (I will write more next time on this)"

Then you mean before ROC no one was speaking Mandarin? Someone must have invented Mandarin then.

"It was just called 'guan1 hua4' depending on where the capitals were !"

Mandarin is established as a dialect group roughly after Yuan dynasty. After Yuan, even from Yuan, the capital was always in Bei Jing. So Mandarin was called guan hua because it is the language of capital. If the capital was located outside Madarin strip, say in Amoy (Xia Men), then Min Nan will be the guan hua, but Min Nan is still Min Nan because the language is establsihed/spoken in Min Nan.

Some websites use the term Bei3 Fang1 Hua4, which is a more, though not entirely, convincing terminology for Mandarin in Mandarin for me.

Eng Wai

[%sig%]

[Language learner]

Hi Eng Wai,

>Then you mean before ROC no one was speaking Mandarin? Someone must have invented Mandarin then.

Perhaps I should have said: Before the ROC, Mandarin existed but not as 'standard' as after the ROC, not as 'scholarly studied & gui1 fan4' as after the ROC !

Again here is the official definition of nowadays Putonghua:
Putonghua is based on Bei3 Fang1 Hua4 but with pronunciation from Beijing on individual characters
Putonghua shi4 yi3 bei3 fang1 hua4 wei2 ji1 chu3, yi3 Bei3 Jing1 yin1 wei2 zhun3 !

I hope it helps !

[Eng Wai]

I am not talking about pu tong hua, but i am talking about mandarin, the language group. But from the websites I read, and the official definition of Pu Tong Hua provided by Mr. Language Learner, mandarin in mandarin should be bei3 fang3 hua4, transliterated as northern language, not guan1 hua4. But again I found some websites classifying regional mandarin into xi nan guan hua, dong bei guan hua etc. Anyone could suggest an authorative answer?

Eng Wai

[Language learner]

Hi Eng Wai,

There are no more "xi nan guan hua, dong bei guan hua" anymore ! These terms existed long long time ago !
However, people still speak "xi nan guan hua, dong bei guan hua" as they wish ! You cannot 'regulate' 1.3 billion people speak 'standard Mandarin' !
Language needs an environment to nurrish, therefore there will always be accents everywhere in China in general and in the Chinese world because there is no 'standard Mandarin' environment for 1.3 billion people !

So, if you have good ears, willing to learn, read, ask etc, you may be able to move to level 7, that's it !

Again here is the official definition of nowadays Putonghua:
Putonghua is based on Bei3 Fang1 Hua4 but with pronunciation from Beijing on individual characters
Putonghua shi4 yi3 bei3 fang1 hua4 wei2 ji1 chu3, yi3 Bei3 Jing1 yin1 wei2 zhun3 !

[Eng Wai]

Dong bei guan hua, xi nan guan hua etc are still used today to classify the regional mandarins. There is a standard Chinese language defined by the authority called Common Language (pu tong hua), but you can never use this to deny the existence of Mandarin varieties spoken by indigenous Mandarin speaker.

If you say people still speak xi nan guan hua, then why do you say this term do not exist? What is your suggestion for the alternative terminology? And if you admit people speakingxi bei gun hua, do you suggest that transliteration of mandarin in mandarin be guan hua?

If so, could you tell me that eliminating the guan element of Mandarin, what should Mandarin be called in Mandarin?

If not so, could you suggest an alternative to guan hua (definitely not pu tong hua) and give me convincing explanation? Bei fang hua is another term used. But how about people who don't live in bei fang? Does it mean that mandarin originates from north china during Yuan and gradualy displaced old chinese spoken by henanese etc?

If you do not agree with the term bei fang hua, then again please suggest another term, and of course give substantial background explanations.

Thanks

Eng Wai

Eng Wai

[Language learner]

Hi Eng Wai,

I don't quite understand why you keep on using the word 'guan hua' ? The words 'guan hua' indicates imperial time and that's the reason the term 'guan hua' not used anymore but people still speak it, they don't call it guan hua any more !
It's like new term 'putonghua' replaced the term 'guo yu' in mainland China after 1949, do you know what I mean ?

>but you can never use this to deny the existence of Mandarin varieties spoken by indigenous Mandarin speaker.
Nobody denies varieties of Mandarin everywhere in China. I already mentioned 1.3 billion Chinese speak with different accents (9 levels are just an example, in fact it can be broken down to lots of sub-levels)

>If not so, could you suggest an alternative to guan hua (definitely not pu tong hua)
Just talk to anyone from China and ask them to see if they still use the term 'guan hua' and find out for yourself !

[Eng Wai]

Well Language Leasrner,

You have totally equated Mandarin n Pu Tong Hua, which is wrong.

And I never equate guan hua n pu tong hua. So I don't know how to answer you. I don't know the proper mandarin word for mandarin. I don't know, that's why I ask, and I doubt the appropriateness of the word guan hua to describe mandarin. Nonetheless I have seen websites using the word guan hua to transliterate mandarin, I have seen some using bei fang hua. The definition of Pu tong hua given by you definitely favour the term bei fang hua.

So

"I don't quite understand why you keep on using the word 'guan hua' ? The words 'guan hua' indicates imperial time and that's the reason the term 'guan hua' not used anymore but people still speak it, they don't call it guan hua any more !
It's like new term 'putonghua' replaced the term 'guo yu' in mainland China after 1949, do you know what I mean ?"

I never insist the usage of guan hua as the mandarin word for mandarin. You shoulf reread all my posts, they are not to long i guess. Ok, if you say guan hua is the historical mandarin word for mandarin, then how do the modern people say mandarin in mandarin? You simply say people do not use the term guan hua anymore, people still need a vocab to describe the same thing, so if guan hua were indeed the historical word fr mandarin, what is the modern word for mandarin?

"Nobody denies varieties of Mandarin everywhere in China. I already mentioned 1.3 billion Chinese speak with different accents (9 levels are just an example, in fact it can be broken down to lots of sub-levels)"

This level system is structured by you to identify the correctness of Pu Tong Hua, not mandarin. THe varieties of Mandarin language, ie dialects, certainly don't fit into this system hich is desgned fof Pu Tong Hua. Unless you equate mandarin to pu tong hua, which is definitely wrong.

"Just talk to anyone from China and ask them to see if they still use the term 'guan hua' and find out for yourself !"

I am talking to you, ou keep denying the term "guan hua" but you never suggest any alternative. Should i give up hope talking to mainland China chinese?

I asked "If not so, could you suggest an alternative to guan hua (definitely not pu tong hua) and give me convincing explanation? Bei fang hua is another term used. But how about people who don't live in bei fang? Does it mean that mandarin originates from north china during Yuan and gradualy displaced old chinese spoken by henanese etc?"

Definitely you don't think so. So where are the alternatives answers suggested by you?

I might suggest another answer on behalf of you. Mandarin in mandarin is Pu Tong Hua. So xi nan guan hua/bei fang hua has become xi nan pu tong hua instead.

Do you agree with me?

Eng Wai

[Eng Wai]

I found these

http://www.secretchina.com/news/article ... 4968b.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_la ... nguages.3F

So mandarin in mandarin should be bei fang hua!

Eng Wai