Off topic question?

Discussions on the Cantonese language.
Hung Dao Dai Vuong

Re: Off topic question?

Postby Hung Dao Dai Vuong » Sat Mar 15, 2003 5:02 am

thomas chan, archaelogical diggings and remainings do show that ancient vietnamese have their own writing script that look like tadpole or worm-like if you want to call it. Some 22 characters of it still remain today in some regions in northern vietnam. About the chinese influenced the vietnamese language to the point that vietnam borrows up to 70 % of its vocabs from china is such nonsense; only linguists ( especially from western hemisphere) would believe in this "sci-fi". Chinese scholars have the tendency to claim everything in Asia is "made-in China" so i wouldn't surprise when they claim the bronze drum of Dong Son culture was originated from China either!

HKB

Re: Off topic question?

Postby HKB » Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:39 am

Calligraphy
Chinese calligraphy, like Chinese painting, ranks among the most important of traditional Chinese fine arts. We may divide the developmental history of Chinese cal-ligraphy into three periods. The Pre-Qin Period (before 221 B. C.) may be called the ancient, or the period of early beginnings. From the Western Han Dynasty (206 B. C . Ñ24 A. D.) to the end of the Tang Dynasty (618Ñ907 A. D.) is the second period, or the period of maturity. From the Five Dynasties (907Ñ960 A. D.) to the end of the Qing Dynasty (1644Ñ1911 A. D.) is the modern period, or the period of individualistic development. The discovery of jiaguwen (oracle bone inscriptions) is a very important event in the Chinese language research. Jiaguwen was seen as the most ancient characters in China. Therefore, they were the earliest pieces of Chinese calligraphy. ZhongdiÕngwen, which have many similarities with jiaguwen and can be seen as the development of jiaguwen, are inscriptions on bronze vessels in the late Shang Dy-nasty (c. 1600Ñ c. 1100 B . C.). Zhongdingwen is also called jinwen (inscriptions on ancient broze objects). According to statistics, characters of zhongdingwen in the Shang Dynasty numbered up to more than four thousand. At this time, there was anoth-er form of writing called kedouwen (tadpole script), which was painted on bamboo slips.

source: http://student.acu.edu/~jxl99b/art3.html

the tadpole script was a form of caligraphy used in pre-imperial China. I'm not sure that these are the worm'like script that you mentioned though. Even if it isn't, "ancient" people in the Vietnam region didn't speak "vietnamese" and these archaelogical evidence that you speak of only shows that ancient peoples of that area possessed some form of written language. But this doesn't prove that words such as "hong ha" aren't loan words from Chinese.

Everything in Asia made in China? Not quite but pretty much. Asian culture, technology, and thought came from two recognized great sources: India and China. Just like Western thought and culture stemmed from Greece and Rome. Everything in Europe is basically originally "made by the Hellenic and Roman Peoples"

KP

Re: Off topic question?

Postby KP » Sat Mar 15, 2003 3:46 pm

Its funny that you guys used visual evidence to claim that pronunciations are Chinese in origin. So what if the Chinese have visual evidence of these words being used? Does that evidence tell you what those words/characters sound like? It is also well known that the Chinese language is extremely diverse and has changed many many times over the past couple thousand years. Many of the Chinese in these forums claim that ancient Chinese sounds more like Cantonese than Mandaring. Yet, today, over a billion Chinese worldwide have accepted Mandarin as their "Official Chinese Language". Is this not accepting the language of the "Northern Barbarians"?

"it is not probable that land conquered by an empire with a central culture already in place for the conquered land to influence the central culture"
How do you explain such Southern "Barbarian" inventions such as the crossbow and rice cultivation? Chinese claim to invent the stirrups as well, though there is plenty of evidence the stirrups were invented by the Northern "Barbarians".

Can anyone tell me where the modern-day Vietnamese words for numbers 1-10 come from? I'm sure there was plenty of animosity for the Chinese after the occupation ended, but why would the Vietnamese change words so significant and higly used if they already had Chinese words for numbers?

HKB

Re: Off topic question?

Postby HKB » Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:12 pm

I wouldn't call Manadarin a "barbaric" language but I don't doubt that it might have assimilated northern phonetics and vocabulary. Cantonese is closer in some ways to classical Chinese than Mandarin. I'll use an example someone else used :the conjunction "but"in classical chinese is "dansi". the cantonese "but" is "danhai" while mandarin prefers "keshi" or "ke." there are many others but in order not to make this too long I'll go straight to phonetics. classical chinese influenced many neighboring cultures, words like "eat", "school," "time," "glasses" "country", "gold" "sword"to name a few all sound similar in neighboring states such as , Korea, and Japan but different in Mandarin. "eat" is "sik"in both Korean and cantonese but "chi"in mandarin. "school" is "hakgyo" in Korean, "Hokhaao" in cantonese, and "gaku" in japanese (notice the similar "-ak-" portion) but "xue-xiao" in mandarin. time is "si-kan" in Korean, "si-gan" (g's r always hard )in cantonese, and "thoi gian" in vietnamese but "shi-jian" in mandarin(notice the difference of k/g and j). glasses is "an-kyong" in korean and "an-gang" cantonese but "yan-jing" in mandarin (again the g and j difference). country is korean "guk" cantonese "gwok" japanese "goku" and vietnamese "quoc" but mandarin "guo" which missed the "k" sound. sword is "kim" korean "ken"japanese "gim"cantonese "gim" vietnamese but "jian" mandarin (again the favored use of j over k/g in mandarin) Japan, korea were highly influenced by China during classical times, and vietnamese was also controlled in ancient times, ffrom this it can be concluded that ancient chinese possess these sounds that are different from mandarin but similar to cantonese. This means cantonese is indeed closer to classical chinese than mandarin (most apparent in its phonetics)

Rice is eaten mainly in central to southern areas of China and the "stirrup" indeed appeared in the north where horse-riding was much more needed. But the people weren't barbarians.

the modern day vietnamese numbers from 1-10 is probably well...of vietnamese origins I suppose. animosity can do a lot but even if it didn't in the case of vietnam, it's normal for the vietnamese people to discard a language not their own.

plus, if a language has a written word and an original pronunciation of it already a long time ago, why would it adopt a different pronunciation of it from another language much later? the sound of the word might change through time but it wouldn't be totally replaced by a different sound. only languages that had no or relatively subordinate written systems get their words completely replaced, like English-more than half of it is Latin. But Latin, which had a stronger power, has no English words in it. But now that English has become much more powerful in modern times, other languages all over the world begin to assimilate English words. China was much more powerful than its surrounding states for millenia, there was no reason for it to assimilate foreign words when there were no other culture more powerful than it, especially when it suppressed the use of other languages in conquered areas.

HKB

Re: Off topic question?

Postby HKB » Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:15 pm

If I gave any wrong evidence or made any overt logical flaws please crrect me. CONSTRUCTIVELY please :)

Hung Dao Dai Vuong

Re: Off topic question?

Postby Hung Dao Dai Vuong » Sun Mar 16, 2003 5:14 am

Let me quote these words that HKB posted:

hong ha(red river) hong ho(red river)
phuong huong(directions) fong heung(directions)
dia diem(place) dei dim(place)
thoi gian(time) si gan(time)
chao (morning) zao(mornin')
khong (speak) gong (speak)
nam(south) nam(south)
bac(north) bak(north)

Dylan Sung,
In the prior post you said that these words existed in the early Zhou era so those bits of vocabs are not from Vietnamese. So you basically reason at that contemporary era the Vietnamese didn't have these words because the Chinese have it??

HKB,

You use the fact that China occupy Vietnam for 1000 years to back up your claim that those are loaned words from China. So logically speaking, if a Vietnamese word pronounce like a Chinese word such as those listed vocabs, it is considered as loaned words from China but not native Vietnamese words due to the fact that China had occupied Vietnam for 1000 years?

You also wrote "But this doesn't prove that words such as "hong ha" aren't loan words from Chinese..."

............so logically speaking, words such as "hong ha", "nam", "bac", "thoi gian", "dia diem", "chao", "phuong huong" are proven that it is loan words from chinese?

HKB

Re: Off topic question?

Postby HKB » Sun Mar 16, 2003 6:51 am

No, I think that Dylan reasoned that these words are already in place in the chinese language before any contact between the ancestors of the vietnamese and the Zhou was made, so the language of the ancestors of the vietnamese could not have been absorbed into Chinese.

and no, the words are not considered loans words ONLY because vietnam was part of China for 1000 years, they are CHinese in origin because they are alsp backed up by archaeological evidence of a written language. Also, words like "nam", south, were adopted by nothern peoples like the Koreans. South for koreans is "nam" so if you claim that "nam" is of vietnamese origin, you're also claiming that vietnam influenced the Korean language in some ways. I'm sure the Koreans would disagree with that strongly.

the word "vietnam" itself is Chinese "yuetnam". yuet-beyond, nam-south. it means "beyond the south", south of Guangdong (canton) and guangxi (southermost regions of china). Would the vietnamese people name their own nation "beyond south"? if they did they must be not very patriotic to their own country. No, the Chinese named vietnam with their own language.

Hung Dao Dai Vuong

Re: Off topic question?

Postby Hung Dao Dai Vuong » Sun Mar 16, 2003 10:04 am

You use archeological evidence to back your point that those words are of chinese origin and since the vietnamese don't have the physical evidence like the chinese do then it is proven that those words are of chinese origin? I disagree with that kind of logics!

KP

Re: Off topic question?

Postby KP » Sun Mar 16, 2003 10:06 am

Yes, I was not refuting any claims that Cantonese sounds closer than Mandarin to ancient Chinese.

The point is that the Chinese did not teach the Vietnamese their first language. The Vietnamese already had a language, which survived through 1000 years of Chinese occupation. The Chinese even tried to replace the Vietnamese language with one of their own, which obviously did not last.

I will not deny that Chinese language has contributed many words to the Vietnamese language. However, you must also realize that Cantonese itself must have changed over the years. This is just my theory, but there are Mandarin words such as Huang Di or surname Liu, which are Hoang De and Lu'u in Vietnamese. But in Cantonese, they become Wong Dai and Lau. What does this say other than that Cantonese words have changed dramatically over time?

So this arguement may refute yours:
"plus, if a language has a written word and an original pronunciation of it already a long time ago, why would it adopt a different pronunciation of it from another language much later? the sound of the word might change through time but it wouldn't be totally replaced by a different sound. only languages that had no or relatively subordinate written systems get their words completely replaced"

This one has flaws as well:
"the word "vietnam" itself is Chinese "yuetnam". yuet-beyond, nam-south. it means "beyond the south", south of Guangdong (canton) and guangxi (southermost regions of china). Would the vietnamese people name their own nation "beyond south"? if they did they must be not very patriotic to their own country. No, the Chinese named vietnam with their own language."

Your translation of "beyond" for the words Yue/Viet must be a more contemporary concept. In ancient times Yue/Viet only referred to the peoples living in that region, or maybe as the traslation I've heard in another thread that Yue translates to "dangerous". The modern name of Viet Nam/Yue Nan/Yuet Nam only came about in the past few hundred years. Modern day Viet Nam has had a variety of names including Nam Viet/Nan Yue and Dai Viet/Tai Yue. As the term Dai Viet came about much later than Nam Viet, and Dai Viet translates to "Great Viet/Yue", we can assume that Nam Viet translates to South Viet/Yue. So with that being said, its is highly possible the Vietnamese named themselves, and did not simply adopt the "Chinese" term.

Hung Dao Dai Vuong

Re: Off topic question?

Postby Hung Dao Dai Vuong » Sun Mar 16, 2003 7:06 pm

I don't believe the word "Viet" is from China. This "Viet" is what i believe the people in the ancient time living at northern "Viet Nam" called themselves prior to the interaction with the chinese. The modern Vietnamese people is of Lac Viet origin :)

KP,

what do you think the word "Van Lang" means ? ;)

KP

Re: Off topic question?

Postby KP » Sun Mar 16, 2003 8:11 pm

Hung Dao Dai Vuong:

I believe "Van Lang" means 'land/kingdom/country' of the 'letters/characters/documents'.....which I've heard translated more meaningfully to "land of the tattooed".

The Chinese transtlation of "Van Lang" is "YeLang"......of which I have not had much luck looking up the meaning. Maybe the Chinese folks here can help us out a bit on the meaning of "YeLang". :)
This Chinese site here:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/20021 ... 5631.shtml
claims that the term "YeLang" is synonymous with "ignorant and arrogant" because the people of "YeLang" once questioned which kingdom was larger....Han or Yelang? So I would assume that YeLang is not Chinese in origin, but was introduced into the Chinese language because the people of the "YeLang/Van Lang" kingdom referred to themselves by that term. This would give even more support to your claim that "Viet" is NOT Chinese in origin as well.

Hung Dao Dai Vuong

Re: Off topic question?

Postby Hung Dao Dai Vuong » Sun Mar 16, 2003 9:55 pm

KP,

this link does talk a bit about the word "Van Lang", just scroll down the page and you'll see.


http://www.viettouch.com/pre-hist/dongson_drums.html

HKB

Re: Off topic question?

Postby HKB » Sun Mar 16, 2003 10:27 pm

"The point is that the Chinese did not teach the Vietnamese their first language."

I never said they did. what I've been doing all along is to tell you that the words I posted are indeed originated in China.
Cantonese have evolved, yes, of course, all languages evolved. It's just that it's closer to classical chinese than Mandarin.

the yuet for cantonese means dangerous and is different than the yuet/viet for vietnam, which means "beyond" . If you refuse to regard archaeology as evidence then we have nothing more to talk about.

KP

Re: Off topic question?

Postby KP » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:22 pm

Hung Dao Dai Vuong:
I forgot about that, I have heard the term "Van Lang" to refer to the bird before. However, in modern Vietnamese, I believe that "van" means documents/letters/characters. So the meaning as "land of tattooed" doesn't sound to far fetched. Unless of course if "van" only took on this meaning after Chinese occupation. ^^


You are totally neglecting the point of the arguement referring to "beyond" and "dangerous". I've seen the other thread, and in there you were unable to argue it as well.

Where is this "archeological" evidence that shows the Vietnamese have referred to themselves as "beyond"? We are the "South Beyond"? We all agree that the Vietnamese have descended from the Bai Yue. Are you telling me that the "Yue" in Bai Yue means beyond? Your explanation of Cantonese Yue are in fact "dangerous" doesn't hold well........as history will tell you that the Cantonese Yue aren't nearly as dangerous as the Yue in Nothern Vietnam.

Without evidence, of course you have would have nothing more to talk about.

KP

Re: Off topic question?

Postby KP » Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:41 pm

"I never said they did. what I've been doing all along is to tell you that the words I posted are indeed originated in China.
Cantonese have evolved, yes, of course, all languages evolved. It's just that it's closer to classical chinese than Mandarin."

Again....you ignore my arguement and only repeat your first...which I have put into question.

Mandarin: Huang Di/Ti; Liu
Cantonese: Wong Dai; Lau
Vietnamese: Hoang De; Lu'u

So are you telling me that it is impossible that in a few instances such as these that Cantonese has strayed from the ancient Chinese pronunciations?


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