Korean invented chinese language

Discuss the Chinese language.
Sum Won

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby Sum Won » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:49 am

Uh... the topic was very interesting, but where does technology and all those other facts you listed relate to this topic, and why don't talk about North Korea? Does this mean that some how the southern Koreans are better than the North Koreans, even though the South wouldn't even exist without US backing?

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but whenever I see a Tae Kwon Do competition, the person representing China always wins. Does this mean that the saying "Tian Xia Wu Gong, Chu Ru Shao Lin" ("All Martial Arts Originate from ShaoLin")? Obviously not.

(If any of you think I'm defending China, like most of you Sinocentric people, you're WRONG!)
-------------------------
Aside from the last reply, I'd like to know more about the topic, but my classes for Korean don't even start until April next year, so would it be possible to get an English or Chinese translation?

PPK

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby PPK » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:09 pm

tell me about it, koreans even told me that kan-do, or the japanese swordsplay, came from korea... i think it would be best to relate everything to korean invention...

peterkim

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby peterkim » Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:44 am

another good post that non chinese will able to deny it.

During prehistory from neolithic to iron age, there were two cultures
in North-East Asaia. In northeastern part (S siberia, central asia,
manchuria, and also current Korean peninsula), nomadic people
dominated, whereas culture based on agriculture dominated southern
China. Nomadic people mostly spoke in Altaic or other similar
languages, while agriculture-based people mostly spoke in
Chinese-Tibetan or proto-Austronesian. Chinese archaeologists have
mostly focused on the latter. Together with languages, features of
bronze weaspons or tomb styles were clearly distinctive between the
two. Ultimately, climate changes to dry/cold conditions drove the
nomadic people to the south (Koreans and Japanese) and to the west
(Turk, Xian-no, etc).

It is also quite certain that the nomadic people in northern China and
southern Siberia firstly cultivated Allium altaicum, the progenitor of
Allium fistulosum, and Allium sativum, the progenitor of Allium
longicuspis.

With respect to various writing systems developed during the bronze
age and/or during Shang state, one thing is certain: writing systems
came from the east (altaic/nomadic people), not from the west or the
south. It is quite certain that people lived in the east were not Han
or Hua people. Do you know who published the first Chinese dictionary
in history? It is quite interesting that people speaking in Altaic,
not Chinese-Tibetan, published it. What kind of spoken language did
Yin/Shang people use? This will be a quite good question for your
exploration into the ultimate inventor of current Chinese characters.

peterkim

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby peterkim » Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:48 am

The question of "who invented language" is very unanswerable. Language,
trade, people went back and forth. Even if Korean (I mean people who lived
in current Korea/Manchuria area) used the languages, it did not mean that
they didn't got something from Chinese (people who lived in current
Southern China). And, vice versa. Current idea about "China" is already
figment of Western imagination, anyways. Currently, there are more than 40
different dialects in China. Who can say who was first, and who didn't
steal?

I think all anyone can say is that "Korean made more contribution to the
development of what is known as Chinese language than currently
acknowledged". Workings of business, economy, technology, trade, and
commerce are the same today as they were 5000 years ago. What drives
linguistic development in today's world? Well, it's computer. You don't
need as much language to grow plant or raise animals. In other words, it
is technology which drives language, not agriculture. So, technology in
the old days were ceramics and casting technology, which Korea was and
still is world leader. You can claim deductive reasoning. But, that's
about all.

Mark
Posts: 134
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Contact:

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby Mark » Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:25 am

Kim niim: shut up. You're giving a bad name to Koreans everywhere. >|<

Sum Won

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby Sum Won » Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:50 pm

Peter:
As I've asked before, it's best to have a translation of the document you've given us:
http://www.hanja.com/plus/board/table/n ... ejong1.pdf

Everyone else:
There's a book called "Chinese characters" by Dr. L. Wieger, S.J.
It has some interesting comments on Shuo Wen Jie Zi; saying that it was to stop further alterations of the words, "...by setting their authentical form before the eyes of all scholars." This book was based upon Li Si's* "San Cang", who tried to standardize the way of writing (known as the "Lesser Seal" characters). Everything he had to go on, were words and canons from the Zhou dynasty, which during it's decay, scholars who didn't know $#|+ about the words, just made some up.** Now, in between the time of the "San Cang" and "Shuo Wen Jie Zi", there were "excessive multiplications", and "gradual transformations". The previous, is what throws everything thing off now: Basically, it is a repitition of what happened in the Zhou dynasty (scholars' neglection of "proper forms"), but this time, due to the empire's expansion, and with it, new things were encountered, so they just had to name everything. Not only that, colloquial expressions played a factor, and "useless doubles" came around, multiplying like rabbits. This was also the time when "Xing Sheng Zi" (words composed from other words for their phonetic pronounciation) sprouted it's ugly head.

Now, here's the question: How did the "Shuo wen Jie Zi" deal with these words (Xing Sheng Zi, "useless coubles", etc...)?



*For those out there who don't know, Li Si was Qin Shi Huang Di's prime minister (recall, the "book burnings" anyone???)

**Wieger's book gives a quote from Confucius, commenting on how bad the situation was during the Zhou dynasty.

anthony

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby anthony » Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:17 pm

Korean invented everything.

anthony

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby anthony » Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:27 pm

WHO GIVE A @!#$.

anthony

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby anthony » Mon Nov 25, 2002 9:41 pm

WHO GIVES A SHITT

peterkim

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby peterkim » Tue Nov 26, 2002 5:08 am

Legends of Shang say about 'bird' and 'seed', which is common among
Altaic/Tungusic tribes including Manchurians. The character denoting
'king' during the Shang dynamsty always contains a syllable
corresponding to 'khan' or 'ghan' in Korea. This means that Bone and
shell characters were also used to denote phonetics. Three Korean
kingdoms already used Chinese characaters as phonetic symbols (Idoo),
even before Tang dynasty. Moreover, the first phonetic dictionary for
comprehensive Chinese characters were not published by
Chinese-Tibetan, but Turks who spoke in Altaic/Tungus. Who did firstly
use 'khan' or 'ghan' to denote their leaders?

peterkim

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby peterkim » Tue Nov 26, 2002 5:10 am

Legends of Shang say about 'bird' and 'seed', which is common among
Altaic/Tungusic tribes including Manchurians. The character denoting
'king' during the Shang dynamsty always contains a syllable
corresponding to 'khan' or 'ghan' in Korea. This means that Bone and
shell characters were also used to denote phonetics. Three Korean
kingdoms already used Chinese characaters as phonetic symbols (Idoo),
even before Tang dynasty. Moreover, the first phonetic dictionary for
comprehensive Chinese characters were not published by
Chinese-Tibetan, but Turks who spoke in Altaic/Tungus. Who did firstly
use 'khan' or 'ghan' to denote their leaders?

peterkim

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby peterkim » Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:15 am

the so-called Chinese character (Hanja in Korean) was
probably invented and developed by Korean ancestors or, at least,
other non-Chinese nomadic people who spoke in Altaic or related
languages, although the populous Chinese also have used it as their
basic writing systems. I believe
the number of population of any ethnic group should not be a factor
that obscures the origin. I explain just one aspect of evidences.

1. Archaeological evidence

Civilizations in China, in the sense of modern political border, were
not initiated and dominated by a single ethnic group. From Neolithic
to Bronze age, when Chinese characters were invented and developed,
nomadic peoples dominated central Asia, southern Siberia, Manchuria
and, probably, current Korean peninsula, whereas agricultural people
lived from Southeast Asia to central China [2]. It is likely that
agricultural people flourished near the area of Yangshao Neolithic
culture, whereas nomadic people in the northeastern and central Asia
dominated areas of Hongshan, Ta wen k'ou and Lungshanoid cultures.
Upper and Lower Hsia-chia-tien in north China also was linked to the
nomadic/hierarchical Lungshanoid and Shang (Yin) cultures to the west.

Sudden climate changes to drier and colder conditions around a
millennium B.C. eventually drove nomadic people to south to Korean
peninsula and Japan and to west to central Asia and even to Europe
[3]. During Zhou, Chin and Han dynasty, Hua people (ancestors of most
of modern Chinese), who had originally lived in Yangshao area,
extended their political territory, while succeeding or interacting
with nomadic cultures, especially Shang [2]. They eventually formed a
uniform, cultural and political unity, so-called Chinese. However, the
term 'Chinese' should not be interpreted as modern border of China
when applied to prehistory civilizations. How could ancient people in
East Asia know that there would be a border defining 'Chinese'? Even,
could any political or cultural border exist during prehistory in
China?

In short, eastern part of the East Asia was dominated by the so-called
'East I', nomadic/Altaic people, whereas western/southern part was
dominated by Hua, agricultural/Chinese-Tibetan people when writing
systems were being developed.

The original pictographs called 'gab-gol' (bone and shell) or
'bok-sa' in Korean were certainly invented during the Yin dynasty (or
Shang state, BC 1600~BC 1046), although it is uncertain who was the
inventor. There is no dispute regarding this matter between Korean and
Chinese historians. There are ample recent evidences that the dominant
people of the Yin dynasty was Korean (Dongyi) or other nomadic people,
which some Chinese historians also agree. Moreover, prototypes of
Hanja (Chinese character) were found to the east of the Shang (Ta wen
k'ou and Lungshan culture), not the west (Yangshao culture) [4]. The
culture of Lungshan was far advanced than Yangshao culture [2]. If
Yangshao can be called Chinese as modern Chinese historians do,
Lungshan should be called Korean or broadly nomadic or Altaic. Why?

Archaeological evidences imply that bronze culture was imported from
Lungshan to the Shang dynasty. With respect to historical records,
Shiji by Sima Qian, which most scholars on east Asian history cherish,
described 'Chiwoo' (chiyou in Chinese) (an Korean emperor recorded in
Handangogi, See footnote 4) as the following:

"He had 81 brothers. They were with beast body, spoke in human
language, had bronze head and iron forehead, and ate sands everyday."

Shiji implies that Chiwoo was from a tribe that used bronze to make
weapons and spoke in different language. Usually, responses to Koreans
described in Chinese history books are bipolar (disparaging while
being scared). The description on Chiwoo is a typical one. But Chinese
historians themselves wrote implications that bronze was introduced
from Koreans.

Contrary to the Chinese history book, Korean history books,
collectively called Handangogi' summarize as the following:

I do not deny the influence of Chinese Hanja culture on Koryo and
Chosun. Depending on the period, the direction of cultural transfer
could change. And, Koreans were segregated from Cantonese area and
confined to the Korean peninsula since the 7-th C AD.

During the Shang period, all three types of Hanja (Chinese character)
already had been developed (pictography, logography and lexigraphy).
Moreover, semantic and phonetic determinative were developed in this
period. It will not be surprising that phonetic determinative
continued to be developed in Korea to establish Idoo before 600 A.D.,
finally inventing Hangul in 1446 A.D.

William Boltz (1986) concluded that the Ta wen k'ou graphs (1900 B.C.)
are indeed the predecessors of the Shang pictography (B.C. 1200). He
differed "Origins of civilization in China" from "Origins of Chinese
civilization".

He noted distinct two kinds of inscription of the Shang dynasty: 1)
oracle bone inscription (OBI), and 2) bronze inscription. Shang OBI
had rough and angular, with a strong dominance of straight lines,
whereas the characters of "bronze inscriptions" are replete with
circles, ovals and curved strokes of a kind nearly impossible to
incise on bone or turtle shell. Shang bronze inscriptions are
generally limited to simple statements of who made the vessel for
whom. The OBI, on the other hand, consist of considerably more
complex, often ritually formulaic, divinatory texts.

Pictographs found in the Shantung province show evolutionary process
of writing system according to Boltz (1986).

(1) Insignia or emblem-type graphs found on pottery fragments from a
neolithic site at Ling yang ho, near Chu hsien, souther part of modern
Shantung province (4300-1900 BC)

(2) Emblem-type character painted on a hu vase found at Pao t'ou
village, Shantung province (Middle Ta wen k'ou period)

(3) Partial insigne found on pottery fragment from Ch'ien chai, north
of Ling yang ho (Late Ta wen k'ou culture)

The feature of the Ta wen k'ou pictographs (1900 B.C.) is matched by
the 'clan name' emblems on Shang bronzes of a few centuries later.

For the latest news on the oldest Chinese character refer to:
http://www.chinapage.com/archeology/2000year.html

Let's summarize the propagation sequence of Hanja system and
technology among the four cultures with respect to Chinese writing
system (Hanja): Ta wen k'ou (4300-1900 BC), Yangshao (West) vs.
Lung-shan (East) (3000-1000BC) and Shang (1700-1027 BC).

<Propagation of Hanja system>
Ta wen k'ou (pictograph) -> Shang dynasty

<Propagation of technology>
Ta wen k'ou (Neolithic) -> Lung-shan (Neolithic + bronze weapon) ->
Shang dynasty (bronze)

Now, it seems certain that Hanja (Chinese writing) did not come from
Yangshao culture, but Hanja might have came from Ta wen k'ou through
Lung-shan (Youngsan). The Lungshan people were far advanced at pottery
than the concurrent Yangshao people. Undoubtedly, the Lungshan was the
predecessor of the Bronze Age (Shang) kingdom.

Few people would deny the fact that "East I" or "East Yi" was the
dominant people of Lung-shan culture. And, Koreans had been called
East Yi, as Yi indeed denotes a 'big bow', which still symbolize why
Koreans are undefeatable champions in Olympic archery. Moreover, it
would not be coincident that the Shang people firstly used a new
composite bow and that the Hanja (Chinese character) denoting Yi is
the shape of the composite bow. A picture of composite bow can be seen
at http://www.rom.on.ca/pub/shang/shangd.html.

2707 BC-2598 BC Reign of fourteenth Han-ung, Ja-o-ji

During his reign: Begins mass production of steel and bronze weapons
such as swords, spears, armor, helmet, arrow tips, etc. When Yumang
(Yuwang), descendent of Shin-nong, tries to reach the coast by
military means, the Han-ung's army crushes them and occupies their
capital, Gongsang (Kongsang, in present Shandong). Then the native
chieftain Heon-won (Xuanyuan, the Yellow Emperor) issues challenge,
whom the Han-ung defeats is 73 successive battles, and makes him a
vassal. Heonwon is given the title Yellow Emperor (Huangdi) by the
Han-ung, who is also known as Chi-u (Ciyou) [1]

People who developed Ta wen k'ou and Lungshan culture in Shantung
province were called "East Yi". Koreans had called "East Yi" by
Chinese, and "Yi" means a big arrow, a feature of the Shang dynasty
[See footnote 1].

Based on archaeological evidences from Ta wen k'ou and Shiji's mention
on bronze weapon of a Korean ancestor, it seems certain that Shang
dynasty succeeded Hanja and bronze culture in the East (Shantung
province) where some Korean ancestors resided.

Some References

[1] http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~korea ... ology.html
[2] Chang, Kwang-chih. 1977. The Archaeology of Ancient China. New
Haven: Yale University Press., 3rd ed.
[3] Chun Chang Huang, Jiangli Pang & Pinghua Li. 2002. Abruptly
increased climatic aridity and its social impact on the Loess Plateau
of China at 3100 B.P. Journal of Arid Environments 52: 87.99
doi:10.1006/jare.2002.0981, available online at
http://www.idealibrary.com
[4] William Boltz. 1986. Early Chinese Writing. World Archaeology 17:
420-36.

Dylan Sung

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby Dylan Sung » Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:05 pm

I would like to point out that "A Handbook of Korea" published by the Korean Overseas Information Service, ISBN 89-7375-002-10 names Tan-gun as founder of Koreans in 2333 BC. This clearly contradicts the dates given by you for an even earlier list of rulers.

Furthermore, it has a comparison chart of chronological events.

It dates China's bronze age as begining somewhere between 5000- 2000 BC. But, it gives Korea's own Bronze age as being between 1000 and 500 BC. Chinese bronze age occurs before the korean bronze age.

Quoting from p.57 of the above.

QUOTE > The people of Ancient Choson are recorded as Tung-i,
QUOTE > "eastern bowmen" or "eastern barbarians". They spread
QUOTE > in Mancuria, the eastern littoral of China, areas north of the
QUOTE > Yangtze River, and the Korean Peninsula. The eastern
QUOTE > bowmen have a myth in which the legendary founder Tan-gun
QUOTE > was born of a father of heavenly descent and a women from a
QUOTE > bear totem tribe. He is said to have started to rule in 2333 BC,
QUOTE > and his descendents reigned in Choson, "the land of the
QUOTE > morning calm"for more than a millenium.
QUOTE > When the Chou people pushed the Yin, the eastern bowmen
QUOTE > moved toward Manchuria and the Korean Peninsula for better
QUOTE > climatic conditions. They seemed to have maintained unity, as
QUOTE > China's great sages, Confucious and Mencius priased their
QUOTE > consanguineous order and the decorum of their society.
QUOTE > The eastern bowmen on the western coast of the Yellow sea
QUOTE > clashed with the Chou people during China's period of warring
QUOTE > states. This led them to move toward southern Manchuria and
QUOTE > the Korean Peninsula.
QUOTE > There were other tribes of eastern bowmen, Ye-Mak in the
QUOTE > Manchurian area and Han on the Korean Peninsula, all belonging
QUOTE > to the Tungsic family and linguistically belonging to the Altaic.
QUOTE > When Yin collapsed, Kija, a subject of the Yin state, entered
QUOTE > Tangun's domanin and introduced the culture of Yin around
QUOTE > the 13th Century BC.


The last paragraph proves without a doubt that Shang/Yin culture was introduced into Korea, and with it came the Chinese invention of writing, and therefore Shang/Yin culture is separate from the culture of the eastern bowmen, or Dongyi 東夷.

From modern calculation of Jiaguwen dates, the correllation between the dates found on these artifacts and eclipse calculation puts the beginning of the Chou/Zhou Dynasty, and therefore the collapse of the Yin dynasty at 1045BC (Chou Fakao- Papers in Chinese Linguistics and Epigraphy) , and this accords very satisfactorily with the beginning of the bronze age in Korea when Kija introduced Shang culture to to domain of Tangun.

As pointed out by James Campbell and Thomas Chan in this and another incarnation of this thread, Korean is an agglutintative language which would better be suited to a writing system showing the changes in the word to indicate tense etc. You can argue who where what all you like, but it still doesn't make sense that the characters do not show the changes in a spoken language which are crucial to indicate when an action occurs.

The idea that Idu has anything to do with the invention of hanzi is ludicrous, since Idu is a phonetic use of characters. It first began in the Unified Shilla era which equates to Tang Dynasty China in chronological time.

From the same source on page 61, under the section on Unified Shilla

QUOTE > There was no more war in the eighth century and the desire
QUOTE > for learning grew. Idu, a new transcription system of Korean
QUOTE > words by the use of Chinese characters, was invented by Shilla
QUOTE > scholars of the mid-upper class next to the upper-royal
QUOTE > nobility, or Chingol (true bone).

When you begin a proof with words like 'probably' or 'I believe', one can tell it is conjecture. And as conjecture, it cannot be taken seriously.


Dyl.

peterkim

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby peterkim » Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:32 am

Legends of Shang say about 'bird' and 'seed', which is common among
Altaic/Tungusic tribes including Manchurians. The character denoting
'king' during the Shang dynamsty always contains a syllable
corresponding to 'khan' or 'ghan' in Korea. This means that Bone and
shell characters were also used to denote phonetics. Three Korean
kingdoms already used Chinese characaters as phonetic symbols (Idoo),
even before Tang dynasty. Moreover, the first phonetic dictionary for
comprehensive Chinese characters were not published by
Chinese-Tibetan, but Turks who spoke in Altaic/Tungus. Who did firstly
use 'khan' or 'ghan' to denote their leaders?

Hung, P (1990) New
light on the origins of the Manchus. Harvard J. Asiatic Studies, Vol.
50 (1): 239-282. The author, I presume, is a chinese scholar. On p.
246, it writes:

"The bird myths of the Jurchens provide clues in linking the Manchus
to the Tung-i people in ancient Manchuria, who had similar legends.
One story is about Ch'i, the founding ancestors of the Shang dynasty
(1766-1122 B.C.), to whom Chien-ti gave birth after having become
pregnant by swallowing the egg of a divine black bird."

What is the founding legend of Chinese Han? Bird and egg is the common
thing among founding legends of Dong-I people, predominantly Korean
kingdoms such as Silla. At least, elites of the Shang dynasty were
certainly Tung-I (East I) people. Is there any Chinese archaeologist
argue against this?? Let me know his name.

peterkim

Re: Korean invented chinese language

Postby peterkim » Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:32 am

Legends of Shang say about 'bird' and 'seed', which is common among
Altaic/Tungusic tribes including Manchurians. The character denoting
'king' during the Shang dynamsty always contains a syllable
corresponding to 'khan' or 'ghan' in Korea. This means that Bone and
shell characters were also used to denote phonetics. Three Korean
kingdoms already used Chinese characaters as phonetic symbols (Idoo),
even before Tang dynasty. Moreover, the first phonetic dictionary for
comprehensive Chinese characters were not published by
Chinese-Tibetan, but Turks who spoke in Altaic/Tungus. Who did firstly
use 'khan' or 'ghan' to denote their leaders?

Hung, P (1990) New
light on the origins of the Manchus. Harvard J. Asiatic Studies, Vol.
50 (1): 239-282. The author, I presume, is a chinese scholar. On p.
246, it writes:

"The bird myths of the Jurchens provide clues in linking the Manchus
to the Tung-i people in ancient Manchuria, who had similar legends.
One story is about Ch'i, the founding ancestors of the Shang dynasty
(1766-1122 B.C.), to whom Chien-ti gave birth after having become
pregnant by swallowing the egg of a divine black bird."

What is the founding legend of Chinese Han? Bird and egg is the common
thing among founding legends of Dong-I people, predominantly Korean
kingdoms such as Silla. At least, elites of the Shang dynasty were
certainly Tung-I (East I) people. Is there any Chinese archaeologist
argue against this?? Let me know his name.


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