Sino-Vietnamese List

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Kobo-Daishi

Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Kobo-Daishi » Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:01 pm

Dear all,

Does anyone know if there is a downloadable list of all the Chinese characters with their Sino-Vietnamese readings available as a text file?

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

Dylan Sung

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Dylan Sung » Sun Mar 14, 2004 8:08 pm

Yep (well, actually not *all* Chinese characters, a couple of thousand characters or so), see my site,

http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/chine ... rhymes.htm

Cheers,
Dyl.

Kobo-Daishi

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Kobo-Daishi » Mon Mar 15, 2004 11:47 am

Dear Dylan,

Dylan wrote:

>>well, actually not *all* Chinese characters, a couple of
>>thousand characters or so

Thanks for the reply, but two thousand or so doesn’t seem like a lot.

Where did you get the readings and how did you enter them?

Actually, I was thinking of a list of characters like:

苾 [bật ]
弻 [bật ]
拂 [bật ]
培 [bậu ]
閉 [bế ]
嬖 [bế ]
箆 [bề ]
篦 [bề ]

so that I could write a program like your annotators.

Have you thought about making one of those annotators but for Sino-Vietnamese readings?

Why don’t you make a program but with an option to select the romanisation based on available databases within the directory holding the program. So, if you have a database with Yale romanisation you can choose it or if you have a Pinyin database you can select it, etc.

And why don’t you make a GUI interface for the program. Or does the Fortran programming language that you use have a simple method for making a GUI interface?

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

Dylan Sung

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Dylan Sung » Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:34 am

Hi KB,

The list of characters come from Etudes Sur La Phonologie Chinoise, by Karlgren, and I've only got those readings in SV from my Han-Viet dictionaries. Other characters I've not inputted SV readings, since it took quite a while to create even the basic list.

I suggest getting a copy of

越漢辭典
Tu Dien Viet-Han [ Tu+` DDie^?n Vie^.t-Ha'n ] Từ Điển Việt-Hán
何成 鄭臥龍 朱德倫 等編
商務印書館
ISBN 7-100-01494-8 / H.455
1960年8月第1版
1997年9月北京第4次印刷

which has a pinyin-character-SV list of characters in the back. I roughly calculate there are around 8000 character readings (probably less chars than readings) in all.

The annotators for Mandarin, Cantonese and Hakka have more than 11000 readings for over 9000 characters in all. With a few thousand for SV, the annotator would give rise to loads of gaps, so I've not thought it would make much sense making one.

My programming is pretty basic, and I program using standard Fortran 77, so no GUIs, unfortunately.

Dyl.

Kobo-Daishi

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Kobo-Daishi » Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:01 pm

Dear Dylan,

Dylan wrote:
越漢辭典
Tu Dien Viet-Han [ Tu+` DDie^?n Vie^.t-Ha'n ] Từ Điển Việt-Hán
何成 鄭臥龍 朱德倫 等編
商務印書館
ISBN 7-100-01494-8 / H.455
1960年8月第1版
1997年9月北京第4次印刷

Do the above SV readings for the book information correspond to the readings listed in your dictionary? Or are there more readings or different readings than the ones I have listed?

Especially for the following characters:

越, 典, 成, 鄭, 龍, 朱, 倫, 等

I see at your web site that Thomas Chan provided you with a Javascript script for your Unicode page. Perhaps he can help you with the programming of a GUI annotator. Do you still keep in touch with him? I don’t see him posting as much as he used to.

What SV readings does your dictionary give for the following character?



Is it kiếm? Or are there more readings?

I was thinking of getting a list of character with reading and then expanding it. Since a lot of characters are merely variants. For example all of the following characters are variants of the character for 劍, sword:

剑劒鐱剣劎釼

so they should have an SV reading of kiếm.

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

P.S. This is in GB encoding so that the variants can show.

Dylan Sung

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Dylan Sung » Thu Mar 18, 2004 3:05 pm

Hi KD,

The characters for which you've given the Vietnamese readings check with the dictionary. On the other hand, hoạt and sủng are mistakes for 越 and 龍. Having a look, I find sủng should be 寵, I don't know what happened with hoạt though... Maybe I selected the wrong character - I'm only human. Making lists of readings is to be honest, very boring.

In the title page of 越漢辭典 (should be called "TuDien HanViet" not HanViet TuDien as you've given) where the compilers are listed, no pronunciation in Vietnamese are given for the names. This dictionary was published in China, so, would a Sino-Viet reading be relevant? It would be like writing a Chinese name in SJ Go-On, or SJ Kan-On.

It has been a few months since I was in contact with Thomas Chan. He's busy with work and family most of the time.

The reading you gave for the 'sword' character(s) is right, and there are no more readings in the listing.

If you're making up a list of SV readings I would like a copy too. Perhaps, it will make helpful for a future SV annotator.

Cheers,
Dyl.

Kobo-Daishi

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Kobo-Daishi » Thu Mar 18, 2004 11:47 pm

Dear Dylan,

The character 越 should have 2 pronunciations. The second pronunciation is huo4 in Mandarin and is not in most online and paper dictionaries.

Though it is at the following site:

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/l ... php?q=%B6V

Strangely, the Guoyu Cidian site doesn’t have the second reading/definition.

I think the Sino-Vietnamese reading of hoạt corresponds to this second reading in Mandarin.

If you look up the character at the Unicode site you will see that there are two readings in Sino-Korean as well.

I looked up the character at the dictionary at this site (chineselanguage.com) and it has the 2 readings in Mandarin also.

http://www.chineselanguage.org/cgi-bin/ ... se,english

I wonder what the corresponding readings would be for the second Mandarin reading in Cantonese, Hakka, Minnan, etc.

Of course the ultimate source of the second reading from all these sites is the Hanyu Da Cidian.

I haven’t had a chance to check on the readings for “dragon” or to see if the second reading for Yue is at the other dictionary sites.

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

Dylan Sung

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Dylan Sung » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:18 am

Hi KD,

My guess from hoạt /hwat/ is that Hakka would give /fat/ and Cantonese either /wut/ or /fat/.

I've had a look at Guangyun (Yu NaeWing ) and 越 comes under two rimes, 月 and 末. The former, the IPA as given by Yu is ɣjuat, the other is ɣuat.

Under the latter, GY gives an alternative character 趏.

ɣ is gamma a voiced velar fricative.


The phonetic 舌 if it corresponds to 活 gives huo/wut/fat in M, C,

and H.

I've had a long for 龍 too, and there is only one reading under 鍾, however.

Cheers,
Dyl.

[%sig%]

Dylan Sung

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Dylan Sung » Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:19 am

That is, the rime 鍾 with characters of /l-/ initials.

Dyl.

yang

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby yang » Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:13 am

co so ha tang

[%sig%]

hoang hieu

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby hoang hieu » Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:28 am

toi co the dowl bo tu dien han-viet o dau

andalas

Postby andalas » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:52 am

Sorry, I don't understand Vietnamese.
It's even worse that I can't read them because there are no marks above what you wrote.

Guest

Postby Guest » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:34 pm

Although I don't understand Vietnamese, I believe that hoang hieu was asking where to obtain tudien hanviet. It was published in China, by Commercial Press. I bought it a few years ago, I'm not sure it is available, but you could try Commerical Press, which has a website in Hong Kong

http://www.cp1897.com/

Cheers,
Dyl.

qrasy

Postby qrasy » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:12 am

By the way, to^i co´ means 'I have'.

Rhin
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:49 am

Re: Sino-Vietnamese List

Postby Rhin » Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:03 am

hoang hieu wrote:toi co the dowl bo tu dien han-viet o dau


Bạn có thể dùng bộ từ điển Hán-Việt trên Internet (bằng Java applet).
Download để dùng offline cũng được.

This is a free online Han-Viet dictionary, implemented in Java applet. Personally I find it very useful, especially the Pocket PC version which I installed in my PDA and carry everywhere with me.

http://www.viethoc.org/hannom/tdnom_beta.php


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